I John 1:9 Protestant Confessional?

[DHK]

HP: Here again you beg the question. You state that “He will not kick us out. We cannot be "unborn." You assume without proof at every turn this presupposition of OSAS. Show us from the text where it states what you claim. Your next verse you mention you do the exact same thing.

It is not an assumption. It is a clear teaching of the Book of Hebrews. He is using an illustration of Father/son for a purpose. As the earthly father/son relationship is, so also is the heavenly father/son relationship. That was the whole point of the teaching.

HP: Yes, the picture is that of a father and a son, but what gives one the authority to tell us that the particular nuance of an earthly father/son relationship must of necessity apply to our relationship with our Heavenly Father as born again children?

Because that is a consistent picture all throughout the Bible. God considers those that have taken Christ as their Saviour His children. They are his chosen ones, his children. The very concept of "you must be born again," is precedented on the fact that one is not a child of God when they come into this world, but must be born into the family--hence the second birth. You must be born again! You must be born into the family of God.

Let’s try and expound for a minute on this necessitated consequence you say MUST apply. For instance, why can we not conclude that because one had no choice whatsoever in being a son of a particular earthly father, that one can have absolutely nothing to do to be a son of our Heavenly Father? That would exclude automatically any notion whatsoever of man’s choice having anything whatsoever to do with choosing or rejecting Christ, would it not? Why could not one be assured that all men, being children of God,

The last part of the statement is heretical and thus does not fit your illustration or reasoning. All people are not children of God. You must be born again. You must be born into the family of God. If you haven't trusted Christ as your Saviour you haven't been born again. What did Jesus say about those who had rejected him:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
--They weren't born again. They had rejected Christ. They were not in the family of God; in fact the devil was their father. All who are born into this world are born into the family of the devil. Therefore they must be born into God's family. You must be born again.

are universally children and as such eternally secure, for you know, once a son always a son, right?

One becomes a son only by trusting Christ as Saviour.

Are we to suppose hell is just some kind of discipline afforded His children?

Hell is for those outside of Christ. Those who are outside of Christ are outside of the family of God. They are not born again.

Why not? I was born into this world a child of God,

You were born a child of the devil; not a child of God. You must be born again.

just as I was born into this world a child of my earthly father. If I am to use your logic of ‘once a son always a son’ universalism reigns and hell is a mere figment of ones delusional aberration of truth. I was born in fellowship with my father. To assume that such could be broken by eternal torment is absolutely contrary to once a son and in fellowship, always a son and treated so without regard to my disobedience or obedience for that matter.

There is no fellowship with God if you are not born into God's family. Therein your reasoning falls apart. Torment is for them that are not born again; not in God's family. You must be born again.

The truth is that there is not a shred of evidence that once a son always a son can be applied to the new birth. An attempt to do so is to try and make an illustration walk on all four legs to support a notion that is otherwise simply unfounded.

It is well founded all throughout Scripture. It is quite apparent that you do not understand what it means to be born again, to be a child of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: Here again you beg the question. You state that “He will not kick us out. We cannot be "unborn." You assume without proof at every turn this presupposition of OSAS. Show us from the text where it states what you claim. Your next verse you mention you do the exact same thing.

DHK: It is not an assumption. It is a clear teaching of the Book of Hebrews. He is using an illustration of Father/son for a purpose. As the earthly father/son relationship is, so also is the heavenly father/son relationship. That was the whole point of the teaching.

HP: It is not the father/son relationship that is the question. The question is does the father/son relationship necessitate the OSAS nuance you give it? You have not provided one ounce of Biblical evidence that such is the case. If you believe Hebrews teaches OSAS, please give us the reference so we can examine it.
Quote:
HP: Yes, the picture is that of a father and a son, but what gives one the authority to tell us that the particular nuance of an earthly father/son relationship must of necessity apply to our relationship with our Heavenly Father as born again children?

DHK: Because that is a consistent picture all throughout the Bible. God considers those that have taken Christ as their Saviour His children. They are his chosen ones, his children. The very concept of "you must be born again," is precedented on the fact that one is not a child of God when they come into this world, but must be born into the family--hence the second birth. You must be born again! You must be born into the family of God.

HP: No one disagree that we are, as believers, children of God. The question you beg is one not about being children but as children is OSAS invoked? You assume without proof ‘once a son always a son.’ No such correlation can be derived from the fact that we are denoted as ‘children of God’ as believers. The relationship that exists between ourselves and God is by faith, as in direct opposition to our relationship with our earthly father, which we had nothing to do with.

DHK: John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

HP: Why don’t you invoke the same deduction about these that are said to be the ‘children of the devil?? Certainly Jesus was using the relationship of a father/son in this illustration. Are you going to be consistent and tell us that it was an absolute impossibility for them to be anything other than what they were, due to once a son always a son, and if once a son of the devil always a son of the devil?? Was their not a time in your life when it could be rightfully said of you that ye were of your father the devil until such a time as you gave your heart and life to God?

The problem is that you have a clear presupposition of 'once a son always a son' (OSAS) and just apply it when it is useful to support your interpretaion of a particular passage, but are not in the least consistent with other passages that invoke the father/son relationship.

 

[D28guy]

I posted this earlier, but its so good...(and some brothers and sisters reading might not *see* yet)...that I'm going to just post it again.

As you will see, this is flooded with scriptural support...

""On the cross, Yeshua the Messiah died and paid for all of our sins; past, present and future. (Isaiah 53:4-6, Isaiah 53:11; 2 Corinthians 5:21; John 19:30)

Eternal life is just that --- eternal. It can never cease or be interrupted in any way. (John 3:16 ; Hebrews 5:9; 1 John 5:11,13)

At the moment of salvation, we are imputed with the Righteousness of Yeshua the Messiah. That is His Righteousness is eternally deposited to our account with God. (Romans 4:3, Romans 4:22-24; 2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30)

At the same time, all sins were blotted out and forgotten. This is called Expiation in theolgy. (Colossians 2:13, Colossians 2:14; Isaiah 1:18; Psalm 103:3; Hebrews 10:17)

When one believes in the Messiah as Savior, he is born from above, and created as a new spiritual creature. (John 3:6) 2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5)

In the instant of salvation, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and seals him as the eternal possession of God. (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 4:30)

The believer is transferred out of the kingdom of Satan into the kingdom of Yeshua the Messiah. (Colossians 1:13,14)

God sees every believer as already resurrected, glorified and seated with Yeshua the Messiah in heaven. (Ephesians 2:4-7; Colossians 2:8-13, Colossians 3:1-4; Romans 8:28-30)

Yeshua the Messiah personally guarantees the eternal security of the believer, holding us by His power. (John 10:28, 29; 1 Peter 1:5)

All sin in the life of the believer results in broken fellowship with God, (1 John 1:6,7) Divine discipline, (Hebrews 12:5-11) and loss of eternal reward (1 Corinthians 3:10-15) but not loss of salvation.

We are restored to fellowship by confession and correction.
(1 John 1:7-9)

If a believer sins persistently, discipline will intensify to the point of death, but his salvation is secure. (1 Corinthians 5:1-5; 1 John 5:16)"

""Be encouraged! Believers can know with absolute certainty their salvation is secured bythe faithfulness and power of God.

This is one of the greatest truths taught in the Bible. It was the reason the apostle John wrote his first epistle: "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13)

You can know you have eternal life when you believe the Word of God. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned." (John 5:24)."

http://www.yeshuatyisrael.com/eternal.htm


PRAISE GOD FOR HIS WONDERFUL PROVISION!!!!

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK (emphasised):
" John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

GE
And if we emphasise like this, we should see another aspect:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Then we could virtually place a question mark at the end? Is it not true? Of course is it! It shows The Faithful: God! He had been, - He was, and has been, the Faithful all along! That's why we could confess! IF, we confess our sins - it is for the fact already true and valid, that God HAD forgiven us our sins, and therein and thus, already had of us, made redeemed, saved, confessing, believers. We do not become believers as the result of our confessing our sins; we confess our sins because God had already forgiven us our sins - which very act of God's is God's act of having made us his own for ever more.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Should we say "PRAISE GOD FOR HIS WONDERFUL PROVISION!!!! " Or / and should we not rather / as well say PRAISE GOD FOR HIS WONDERFUL assurance!!!!

 

[Agnus_Dei]

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I John 1:9

Catholics get a bad rap among most evangelical Christians for habitually sinning and going to get forgiven by the priest at confessional. What is the difference between these Catholics and Baptists who go to revivals and hear the above verse and go down the aisle to confess their sins?

Is this verse being misused to give a false assurance?

Does a believer need to confess his sins in order to receive forgiveness?

Confessing our sins to God...and confessing our sins to a priest is apples and oranges...no...make that grapes to watermelons.

Confession is a sacrament, given by authority to the Apostles in John 20:23 by Christ. The misconception is how this sacrament is administered and the role of the priest administering these sacraments.

I was raised a Baptist, attended Catholic RCIA and have just completed Orthodox Catechesis. There’s a huge fundamental difference in the Sacramental theology between the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

In the RCC it is assumed that at ordination the priest receives from God the “power” to effect the sacraments…meaning the priest has the power to change the elements to the body and blood of Christ and to authority to forgive sins.

The difference between the priesthood in the Orthodox Church vs. the RCC, is that the Orthodox priest is but the visible icon of Christ who works invisibly in His Church. The Orthodox view is that it is God who effects all the sacraments through Christ in the Holy Spirit. Christ exercises His ministry to the Church through the ministry of the priesthood. It is not the priest exercising an autonomous power he received from God, but Christ exercising His ministry through the priest.

Therefore, in the Orthodox Liturgy, the priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to come down and change the elements into the body and blood of Christ, which is a mystery…the Orthodox unlike RCC “transubstantiation” refuses to explain this mystery. In the Sacrament of Confession, the Orthodox priest reminds the penitent: My brother, inasmuch as you have come to God and to me, be not ashamed, for you speak NOT TO ME, BUT TO GOD, before whom you stand. After the confession is made (and btw, its not in a confessional booth, but in the Church under the icon of the repented thief) the priest says: My spiritual child, who has confessed to my humble self, I, humble and a sinner, have NOT power on earth to forgive sins, BUT GOD ALONE… The confession is made to God and God alone grants forgiveness.

Through the sacraments is how God interacts with us in His Church…through the words, actions, physical things, and living touch of others, not alone in isolation from others.

This doesn’t mean the Orthodox Church discourages private prayer; our prayer book contains many prayers of repentance for private prayer use and the Church encourages it, but again Confession is a sacrament, and we should go to God and allow this sacramental grace to flow upon us.

It’s all too easy to go into our prayer closet and confess our sins, leave and do the same sin again. Going to confession a priest can identify sins we are struggling with and can offer spiritual guidance. Also, I’ve met Orthodox converts who’ve as Protestants struggled with the guilt of sin(s) and went to Confession and to heard the words of absolution and was literally set free of the burden.

Looking forward to my first confession and reception into the Orthodox Church soon!

InXC
-

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thesis:
"At the moment of salvation, we are imputed with the Righteousness of Yeshua the Messiah.

At the same time, all sins were blotted out and forgotten.

When one believes in the Messiah as Savior, he is born from above, and created as a new spiritual creature.

In the instant of salvation, the Holy Spirit indwells the believer and seals him as the eternal possession of God."


Comment:

That is the way we say it, how we experience it.

But From God's point of view (if I may say so), it is like this:

At the moment we are imputed with the Righteousness of Yeshua the Messiah, we are saved.

All sins were blotted out and forgotten; On strength of its truth, we are forgiven our sins and at the same time are eternally saved.

When one is born from above, and created as a new spiritual creature, he believes in the Messiah as Saviour.

In the instant the Holy Spirit indwells the believer He seals him as the eternal possession of God, and the person is saved for ever.

 

[DHK]

Therefore, in the Orthodox Liturgy, the priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to come down and change the elements into the body and blood of Christ, which is a mystery…the Orthodox unlike RCC “transubstantiation” refuses to explain this mystery. In the Sacrament of Confession, the Orthodox priest reminds the penitent: My brother, inasmuch as you have come to God and to me, be not ashamed, for you speak NOT TO ME, BUT TO GOD, before whom you stand. After the confession is made (and btw, its not in a confessional booth, but in the Church under the icon of the repented thief) the priest says: My spiritual child, who has confessed to my humble self, I, humble and a sinner, have NOT power on earth to forgive sins, BUT GOD ALONE… The confession is made to God and God alone grants forgiveness.

Through the sacraments is how God interacts with us in His Church…through the words, actions, physical things, and living touch of others, not alone in isolation from others.
InXC
-

All of this has nothing to do with the Bible or even the OP. It is simply man-made liturgy having absolutely no Biblical foundation whatsoever.

 

[D28guy]

Agnus Dei,

"Confession is a sacrament, given by authority to the Apostles in John 20:23 by Christ. The misconception is how this sacrament is administered and the role of the priest administering these sacraments."

There is not an ounce of truth to any of that. That is pure fantasy. It is nothing but a man made legalistic form of religiosity...designed to keep the lowly masses in bondage to a false religious organisation.

In truth, confession of sins sometimes involves confessing to a person whom we have sinned against. Apologizing and asking forgiviness from that individual. No religious organisation is involved in the least.

2ndly, confession can be directed to God Himself. The communication is directly from the christian to Almighty God. No so called "priest", minister, pastor or anyone else need be involved at all.

No booth is needed. No so called "sacrament" is needed. No prescribed "penance" is needed.

The reason is that there is...no...priesthood...of...any...kind...anymore that is any kind of "intercessor" between us and God. Every single christian is personally connected to God through the sealing of the Holy Spirit. The scriptures teach us that we...all christians...are a "royal priesthood", that we might "proclaim the praises of Him who calles us out of darkness, and into His marvelous light". Every one of us is connected personally to God.

The prayers of a new born christian...5 minutes after being born of the Spirit...have every bit the intercessory effectiveness with God as the Pope of Catholicism. (assuming the Pope is saved, of course.)

Grace and peace,

Mike