I John 5:7

[Salty]

Is it true that 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If that is true,
why is it in the King James Bible?

Click here for discussion

Disclaimer - This is NOT a discussion about Chick

 

[Conan]

It's in the KJV because Erasmus put it in his 3rd edition of his Greek New Testament. It was missing from his 1st and 2nd editions because it was not found in the Greek Manuscripts. But he came under fire by Latin Church officials because it was in the Latin Vulgate but not his New Testament. He responded that he was just following what the Greek Manuscripts said. Someone produced one with the extra words inserted. In those days he could have been condemned as a heretic so under pressure he inserted the passage in his 3rd edition and was copied by all other editors of Greek New Testaments for hundreds of years. Its missing from Luthers German Bibles because he used Erasmus's 2nd edition. William Tyndale used Erasmus's 3rd edition so the extra words are in English Bibles. But in Tyndale's Bibles and Matthews the extra words are in (parentheses). After that the parentheses were missing from later English Bibles. So it came down 75 years or so later into the KJV.

 

[37818]

Appare ntly Tyndale included it in parentheses "(For ther are thre which beare recorde in heuen the father the worde and the wholy goost. And these thre are one)"
And all the English translations to the KJV included it.

 

[Alan Gross]

1 John 5:7
by Thomas Golda

"For there are THREE that BEAR RECORD in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these THREE are ONE." I John 5:7(KJV)

The 1611 KJV preserves this verse, as other Bibles do not.
(see a short list of Modern Versions with I John 5:7 deleted, here:
Is the King James Version Nearest to the Original Autographs?)

THREE bear record or witness in heaven....
the "oneness" doctrine" is false
where they say Jesus IS the Father and vice versa.

The Trinity is 100% true. 3 "persons" bear record in heaven
and these three are one....one God.

While this verse is not found in the majority of Greek manuscripts,
it is found in a minority (10 total, out of about 500 that contain I John 5)

The Greek texts include 629 (fourteenth century), 61 (sixteenth century), 918 (sixteenth century), 2473 (seventeenth century), and 2318 (eighteenth century).

It is also in the margins of 221 (tenth century), 635 (eleventh century), 88 (twelfth century), 429 (fourteenth century), and 636 (fifteenth century)

I John 5:7 can be traced back to the Waldensian Church
to the translation of the Old Italic in the 2nd century

In the 7th century at least 12 Old Latin MSS contained the passage
In the 8th century at least 21 Old Latin MSS contained the passage
In the 9th century at least 189 Old Latin MSS contained the passage

Over 6,000 Latin manuscripts remained unexamined to this day.

I John 5:7 was referred to going back to 200AD.

200 AD - Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas

250 AD - Cyprian of Carthage, wrote,
"And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost IT IS WRITTEN:
"And the THREE are ONE" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians.

Note that Cyprian is quoting
and says "it is written, And the three are One."

He lived from 180 to 250 A.D.
and the scriptures he had at that time
contained the verse in question.

This is at least 100 years before anything we have today
in the Greek copies.

If it wasn't part of the Holy Scripture, then where did he get it?

350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]

"and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus." - PRISCILLIAN (380AD)

350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]

350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione

380 AD Priscillian in Liber Apologeticus quotes "and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."

398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism

415 AD Council of Carthage. The contested verse (1 John 5:7) is quoted at the Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith for the "orthodox."

It reads with the King James.

How did 350 prelates in 415 A.D. take a verse to be orthodox that wasn't in the Bible?

It had to exist there from the beginning.

It was quoted as "Pater, VERBUM, et Spiritus Sanctus".

".....and in order that we may teach until now, more clearly than light, that the Holy Spirit is now one divinity with the Father and the Son. It is PROVED by the EVANGELIST JOHN, for HE SAYS, 'there are THREE which BEAR TESTIMONY in heaven, the FATHER, the WORD, and the HOLY SPIRIT, and THESE THREE ARE ONE" - Eugenius said at the Council of Carthage

450AD - "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one." - I John 5:7 - Anchor Bible; Epistle of John - Contra Varimadum 1.5 (CC90,20-21)- 450AD

450-530 AD. Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:

A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"

there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." - Victor Vitensis - 485AD

B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]

C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

"There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Son and the Spirit. And the three are one being." - FULGENTIUS(527AD)

500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]

527 AD Fulgentius in Contra Arianos stated: "Tres sunt qui testimonium perhibent in caelo. Pater, Verbum et Spiritus, et tres unum sunt."

550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]

636 AD Isidor of Seville quotes the verse as it stands in the KJB.

750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it

800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]

157-1400 AD. Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse.

Among the list of faithful that contend for the verse:

Cyprian - 250 AD, Priscillian -385 AD, Jerome 420 AD, Fulgentius, Cassiodorus, Isidore of Seville, Jaqub of Edessa, Thomas Aquinas, John Wycliffe, Desiderus Erasmus, Lopez de Zuniga, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, Cipriano de Valera, John Owen, Francis Turretin, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Andrew Fuller, Thomas F. Middleton, Luis Gaussen, Frederick Nolan, Robert L. Dabney, Herman C. Hoskier, George Ricker Berry, Edward F. Hills, David Otis Fuller, Thomas Holland, Michael Maynard and Donald A. Waite

So, the evidence shows that I John 5:7 is the Word of God

 

[Conan]

1 John 5:7
by Thomas Golda

"For there are THREE that BEAR RECORD in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these THREE are ONE." I John 5:7(KJV)

The 1611 KJV preserves this verse, as other Bibles do not.
(see a short list of Modern Versions with I John 5:7 deleted, here:
Is the King James Version Nearest to the Original Autographs?)

THREE bear record or witness in heaven....
the "oneness" doctrine" is false
where they say Jesus IS the Father and vice versa.

The Trinity is 100% true. 3 "persons" bear record in heaven
and these three are one....one God.

While this verse is not found in the majority of Greek manuscripts,
it is found in a minority (10 total, out of about 500 that contain I John 5)

The Greek texts include 629 (fourteenth century), 61 (sixteenth century), 918 (sixteenth century), 2473 (seventeenth century), and 2318 (eighteenth century).

It is also in the margins of 221 (tenth century), 635 (eleventh century), 88 (twelfth century), 429 (fourteenth century), and 636 (fifteenth century)

I John 5:7 can be traced back to the Waldensian Church
to the translation of the Old Italic in the 2nd century

In the 7th century at least 12 Old Latin MSS contained the passage
In the 8th century at least 21 Old Latin MSS contained the passage
In the 9th century at least 189 Old Latin MSS contained the passage

Over 6,000 Latin manuscripts remained unexamined to this day.

I John 5:7 was referred to going back to 200AD.

200 AD - Tertullian quoted the verse in his Apology, Against Praxeas

250 AD - Cyprian of Carthage, wrote,
"And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost IT IS WRITTEN:
"And the THREE are ONE" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians.

Note that Cyprian is quoting
and says "it is written, And the three are One."

He lived from 180 to 250 A.D.
and the scriptures he had at that time
contained the verse in question.

This is at least 100 years before anything we have today
in the Greek copies.

If it wasn't part of the Holy Scripture, then where did he get it?

350 AD Priscillian referred to it [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. xviii, p. 6.]

"and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus." - PRISCILLIAN (380AD)

350 AD Idacius Clarus referred to it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 62, col. 359.]

350 AD Athanasius referred to it in his De Incarnatione

380 AD Priscillian in Liber Apologeticus quotes "and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus."

398 AD Aurelius Augustine used it to defend Trinitarianism in De Trinitate against the heresy of Sabellianism

415 AD Council of Carthage. The contested verse (1 John 5:7) is quoted at the Council of Carthage (415 A. D.) by Eugenius, who drew up the confession of faith for the "orthodox."

It reads with the King James.

How did 350 prelates in 415 A.D. take a verse to be orthodox that wasn't in the Bible?

It had to exist there from the beginning.

It was quoted as "Pater, VERBUM, et Spiritus Sanctus".

".....and in order that we may teach until now, more clearly than light, that the Holy Spirit is now one divinity with the Father and the Son. It is PROVED by the EVANGELIST JOHN, for HE SAYS, 'there are THREE which BEAR TESTIMONY in heaven, the FATHER, the WORD, and the HOLY SPIRIT, and THESE THREE ARE ONE" - Eugenius said at the Council of Carthage

450AD - "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, The Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one." - I John 5:7 - Anchor Bible; Epistle of John - Contra Varimadum 1.5 (CC90,20-21)- 450AD

450-530 AD. Several orthodox African writers quoted the verse when defending the doctrine of the Trinity against the gainsaying of the Vandals. These writers are:

A) Vigilius Tapensis in "Three Witnesses in Heaven"

there are three which bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one." - Victor Vitensis - 485AD

B) Victor Vitensis in his Historia persecutionis [Corpus Scriptorum Ecclesiasticorum Latinorum, Academia Litterarum Vindobonensis, vol. vii, p. 60.]

C) Fulgentius in "The Three Heavenly Witnesses" [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 65, col. 500.]

"There are three who bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Son and the Spirit. And the three are one being." - FULGENTIUS(527AD)

500 AD Cassiodorus cited it [Patrilogiae Cursus Completus, Series Latina by Migne, vol. 70, col. 1373.]

527 AD Fulgentius in Contra Arianos stated: "Tres sunt qui testimonium perhibent in caelo. Pater, Verbum et Spiritus, et tres unum sunt."

550 AD The "Speculum" has it [The Speculum is a treatise that contains some good Old Latin scriptures.]

636 AD Isidor of Seville quotes the verse as it stands in the KJB.

750 AD Wianburgensis referred to it

800 AD Jerome's Vulgate has it [It was not in Jerome's original Vulgate, but was brought in about 800 AD from good Old Latin manuscripts.]

157-1400 AD. Waldensian (that is, Vaudois) Bibles have the verse.

Among the list of faithful that contend for the verse:

Cyprian - 250 AD, Priscillian -385 AD, Jerome 420 AD, Fulgentius, Cassiodorus, Isidore of Seville, Jaqub of Edessa, Thomas Aquinas, John Wycliffe, Desiderus Erasmus, Lopez de Zuniga, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, Cipriano de Valera, John Owen, Francis Turretin, John Gill, Matthew Henry, Andrew Fuller, Thomas F. Middleton, Luis Gaussen, Frederick Nolan, Robert L. Dabney, Herman C. Hoskier, George Ricker Berry, Edward F. Hills, David Otis Fuller, Thomas Holland, Michael Maynard and Donald A. Waite

So, the evidence shows that I John 5:7 is the Word of God

Roman Catholic Reading.

 

[Alan Gross]

Additional Information Supporting 1 John 5:7
by Thomas Golda

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." I John 5:7

I John 5:7, or The Johannine Comma, is probably the most debated verse in the Bible. And it is symbolic of the battle that exists between the KJV, which is the most accurate version of the Word of God, and modern (so and so) versions which omit I John 5:7.

While I have done studies on I John 5:7 before, this is additional information to support I John 5:7, as well as the KJV, which we will see later in this study actually have a more ancient witness than the corrupt Codex Sinaiticus and its sister Codex Vaticanus.

The traditional argument is that there are only 9 Greek manuscripts that bear reference to I John 5:7.

They are:

61, 88 221, 429, 629, 635, 636, 918, and 2381

The reality is that there are far more Greek manuscripts that bear witness to I John 5:7 than we are told.

George Travis documented 31 Greek manuscripts that bore witness to I John 5:7 - (Letters to Edward George Gibbon, Esq. Forgotten Books, p. 285)

One must never think there are only 9 Greek manuscripts that contain the passage.

So, the Greek does testify to the witness of I John 5:7

In addition to the Greek, the Old Latin testifies to I John 5:7

When the Scriptures were written in Greek, they were very soon thereafter translated into Latin. The reason was that Latin, like Greek, was a universal language.

Most scholars agree that the Old Latin New Testament was translated from Greek around the second half of the second century. Some even before that. The time range is from 137AD to 150AD. So, soon after the Bible was completed, the Greek scriptures were translated into Latin. Copies of the Old Latin we have today are from the 6th century to the 13th century, and they are copies that go as far back as the 2nd century.


Of the 6 main Old Latin copies that contain I John 5:7, they are:

1. Monacensis 64

2. Speculum

3. Colbertinus

4. Demidoviannus

5. Divionesis

6. Perpinanensis

In addition to the Old Latin, the Latin Vulgate has I John 5:7. Out of every 50 manuscripts, 49 contain I John 5:7. While "Jerome's Vulgate" did not contain I John 5:7, Jerome himself admitted it should be there. How can he admit it was there if it never existed to begin with? Many accused Jerome of corrupting the Bible. There are over 8,000 Latin Vulgate manuscripts and over 98% of them contain I John 5:7.

In the English-speaking world, I John 5:7 was never brought into question until 1881. For over 500 years I John 5:7 was universally accepted.

It was not until the late 1800s that I John 5:7 became questioned: "at the same time modern apostate translations started to appear."

Another important fact is this....The Greek Orthodox Church TO THIS DAY uses ONLY the KJV Bible when using an English version of the New Testament. They will not endorse any of the other modern English translations.

This should shock people who support modern translations, as most of the English-speaking world rejects the KJV and I John 5:7.

But modern-day apostates reject the Greek Bible of the Greek Church. As for the Greek Church, they still use the Byzantine manuscripts, EVEN AS ALL THE CHURCHES HAD UNTIL 1881.

The Byzantine manuscripts had always been the manuscripts of the church. That is why all the early church fathers quote I John 5:7:

200 – Tertullian
250 – Cyprian
318 – Athanasius
350 – Idacius Clarus
380 – Priscillian
385 – Gregory of Nazanzius
390 – Jerome
450 – Contra Varimadum
450 – Latin mss. m
485 – Council of Carthage
485 – Victor of Vitensis
500 – Latin mss. r
527 – Fulgentius
570 – Cassiodorus
636 – Isidore of Seville
650 – Codex Pal Legionensus
700 – Jaqub of Edessa
735 – mss. used by Venerable Bede
850 – Codex Ulmensis

In addition, these Bibles contain I John 5:7:

The Syrian Bibles, the Slavic Bibles, the Russian Bible, the Celtic Bible, the French or Gallic Bible, the German Bible prior to Luther, the Telp Bible of the 14 century of Bohemia, the Swiss Bible, the Italian Bible, in addition to many of the ancient English Bibles....the Wycliffe Bible, the Tyndale Bible, Matthew's Bible, the Geneva Bible, the Bishop's Bible, and the 1611 Authorized Bible.

Most ancient Witness:

Finally, as a final witness to the truth of the KJV and I John 5:7

Dr. McIntosh and Dr.Twyman in 1887 (just 6 years after the Revised version came out) discovered an Old Latin manuscript, dating back to the time of Constantine the Great. This is the only complete Old Latin manuscript and oldest. The dating of this manuscript would be around 325-330AD. This specific manuscript is marked by the Emperor's name (Constantine the Great) This is stored in the library of Constantinople.

These 2 men were able to view these manuscripts (by paying money) and after viewing it came to this conclusion....."This Old Latin manuscript is essentially the same as our Authorized Version." This is written in their testimony "The Archon Volume, page 60-61. Dr.Frederick Nolan a few decades earlier came to the same conclusion.

Not only was I John 5:7 in this Old Latin manuscript from 325 AD, but the entire manuscript was also a near replicate of today's Authorized 1611 KJV....and this Old Latin manuscript is just as old or older than the corrupt Codex Sinaiticus and its sister Codex Vaticanus.

So, the KJV and the "later Byzantine Greek" that it is based on, was a reflection of the earlier Greek, which was witnessed by the ancient Latin manuscripts that translated from that earlier Greek.

I John 5:7 was in the Latin Scriptures in the Greek Church that predates the oldest manuscripts we have in our possession. The OId Latin Manuscripts were "of Greek origin" and thus the same as the Byzantine Text.

 

[37818]

1 John 5:7, . . . οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες . . . .
99% of all the manuscripts of 1 John.

 

[Silverhair]

It is missing in all the earlier Greek manuscripts, for it is found in no Greek manuscript written before the 16th century. Indeed, it is found in only two Greek manuscripts of any age - one the Codex Montfortianus, or Britannicus, written in the beginning of the sixteenth century, and the other the Codex Ravianus, which is a mere transcript of the text, taken partly from the third edition of Stephen’s New Testament, and partly from the Complutensian Polyglott. But it is incredible that a genuine passage of the New Testament should be missing in all the early Greek manuscripts.

It is never quoted by the Greek fathers in their controversies on the doctrine of the Trinity - a passage which would be so much in point, and which could not have failed to be quoted if it were genuine; and it is not referred to by the Latin fathers until the time of Vigilius, at the end of the 5th century. If the passage were believed to be genuine - nay, if it were known at all to be in existence, and to have any probability in its favor - it is incredible that in all the controversies which occurred in regard to the divine nature, and in all the efforts to define the doctrine of the Trinity, this passage should never have been referred to. But it never was... Barnes

As Conan pointed out the addition was foisted upon the bible by the RCC. It adds nothing to the text and actually breaks the flow of John's thought which is the testimony regarding the Son of God and our life in Him. 1 John 5:6-12

 

[Alan Gross]

While the External evidence for the inclusion of I John 5:7 is ancient and overwhelming (see posts above), once we get the answer to, "why would anyone (or another influence) find it so important to leave out?", it gives us the clinger.

There are groups that would find that leaving out anything to do with the Trinity, as essential (JWs), the way Modern bibles have done to the word, "GODHEAD", however, the Trinity is bearing record in Heaven, before the whole Universe, to more than their being the GODHEAD.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." —1Jo 5:7

The Triune GODHEAD is legally testifying, on themselves, their solemn oath bearing record in Heaven of the following parallel passage:

13 "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."

1 John chapter 4:13, 14.

Then, we also have the Internal evidence of the Greek as proof, for Greek students, on below:

From:
1 John 5:7 (Johannine Comma) - "These Three Are One"

Internal Evidence:

"The structure of the Comma is certainly Johannine in style.

"John is noted for referring to Christ as "the Word."

"If 1 John 5:7 were an interpretation of verse eight, as some have suggested, than we would expect the verse to use "Son" instead of "Word."

"However, the verse uses the Greek word logos, which is uniquely in the style of John and provides evidence of its genuineness.

"Also, we find John drawing parallels between the Trinity and what they testify (1 John 4:13-14).

"Therefore, it comes as no surprise to find a parallel of witnesses containing groups of three, one heavenly and one earthly.

"The strongest evidence, however, is found in the Greek text itself.

"Looking at 1 John 5:8, there are three nouns which, in Greek, stand in the neuter (Spirit, water, and blood).

"However, they are followed by a participle that is masculine.

"The Greek phrase here is oi marturountes (who bare witness).

"Those who know the Greek language understand this to be poor grammar if left to stand on its own.

"Even more noticeably, verse six has the same participle but stands in the neuter (Gk.: to marturoun).

"Why are three neuter nouns supported with a masculine participle?

"The answer is found if we include verse seven.

"There we have two masculine nouns (Father and Son) followed by a neuter noun (Spirit).

"The verse also has the Greek masculine participle oi marturountes.

"With this clause introducing verse eight, it is very proper for the participle in verse eight to be masculine, because of the masculine nouns in verse seven.

"But if verse seven were not there it would become improper Greek grammar.

"Even though Gregory of Nazianzus (390 AD) does not testify to the authenticity of the Comma, he makes mention of the flawed grammar resulting from its absence.

"In his Theological Orientations he writes referring to John:

". . . (he has not been consistent) in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using Three in the masculine gender he adds three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your grammarians have laid down.

"For what is the difference between putting a masculine Three first, and then adding One and One and One in the neuter, or after a masculine One and One and One to use the Three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourselves disclaim in the case of Deity? [8]

"It is clear that Gregory recognized the inconsistency with Greek grammar if all we have are verses six and eight without verse seven.

"Other scholars have recognized the same thing.

"This was the argument of Robert Dabney of Union Theological Seminary in his book, The Doctrinal Various Readings of the New Testament Greek (1891).

"Bishop Middleton in his book, Doctrine of the Greek Article, argues that verse seven must be a part of the text according to the Greek structure of the passage.

"Even in the famous commentary by Matthew Henry, there is a note stating that we must have verse seven if we are to have proper Greek in verse eight. [9]"


[8] "Fifth Orientation the Holy Spirit.

[9] "Actually the 1 John commentary is the work of "Mr. John Reynolds of Shrewsbury," one of the ministers who completed Matthew Henry's commentary, which was left incomplete [only up to the end of Acts] at Henry's death in 1714."