I know this horse is dead as dead can be....

[Martin Marprelate]

Warren Wiersbe…

"It is finished!" is one word in the Greek text—tetelestai. The word was a common one and was used by merchants to mean "The price is all paid!" Shepherds and priests used it when they found a perfect sheep, ready for sacrifice; and Christ died as the perfect lamb of God. Servants, when their work was completed, would use this word when reporting to their masters. Christ, the obedient Servant, had finished the work the Father gave Him to do. Christ willingly and deliberately gave up His life; He laid down His life for His friends. (Wiersbe, W. W. Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testament. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books)


John MacArthur writes that It is Finished…

was a shout of triumph; the proclamation of a victor. The work of redemption that the Father had given Him was accomplished: sin was atoned for (He 9:12-note; He 10:12-note), and Satan was defeated and rendered powerless (He 2:14-note; cf. 1Pe 1:18, 19-note, 1Pe 1:20-note; 1Jn 3:8). Every requirement of God's righteous law had been satisfied; God's holy wrath against sin had been appeased (Ro 3:25-note; He 2:17-note; 1Jn 2:2; 4:10); every prophecy had been fulfilled. Christ's completion of the work of redemption means that nothing needs to be nor can be added to it. Salvation is not a joint effort of God and man, but is entirely a work of God's grace, appropriated solely by faith (Eph. 2:8, 9-note). His mission accomplished, the time had come for Christ to surrender His life. (MacArthur New Testament Commentary – John 12-21)

Andrew Murray;
Perhaps the meaning that Jesus had foremost in His mind when He uttered the word tetelestai was related to its secular use in the context of payment of debts. When someone had a debt in ancient times and it was paid off, they would write "tetelestai" on the certificate signifying "Paid in Full". When He gave Himself on the cross, Jesus fully met the righteous demands of a holy law; He paid our debt in full. None of the Old Testament sacrifices could take away sins. Their blood only covered sin. But the Lamb of God shed His blood, (for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, Heb 9:15-note) and that blood (and only that blood) can take away the sins of the world (Jn 1:29; He 9:24-note, He 9:25, 26-note, He 9:27, 28-note).

Thanks for that.
Also, J.C. Ryle wrote: 'One comfortable thought , at all events, stands out most clearly......We rest our souls upon a finished work .if we rest them on the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.......We may lean back on the thought that we have a a Saviour who has done all, paid all, accomplished all, performed all that is necessary for our salvation.'

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast

I thought about what you have said over several threads concerning doctrine. We simply lok at Scripture differently.

I have said God's Word means what it says. I take a literal approach to Scripture and believe it the test of doctrine.

You have made several points over several threads. You suggested:

1. Scripture is true in what it "teaches" when "properly understood".

2. God gave the world Reformed teachers to explain what Scripture means (an older thread).

3. I complained that you hold a fairly new belief. You clained the meaning of Scripture is "progressively revealed".

4. You claim God's actual words are "empty husks" without Reformed teaching.



When I said that I once stood where you are now I meant believing Penal Substitution Theory snd being a Calvinist. I never held your view of Scripture.

We have too different a view of God and His Word for a meaningful conversation. I will continue to offer Scripture and you will continue to view Scripture as "empty hulls" without the Reformed men you follow to give them meaning.

I will always insist that God's Word....what is written... is the standard we should be testing what we believe is taught. Therefore I can never accept your belief on this topic as legitimate. You have been carried away by vain philosophy.

I still urge you to lay aside your commentators and philosophy to seek out God's Word.

 

[Iconoclast]

You do realize that NOT a single person you quoted in this post states that the cost of the "righteous demands of a holy law; He paid our debt in full" states that God poured out His wrath upon the Son in some manner of divine judgement?

If you have read my other posts before this, you would see that I presented EXACTLY the same principles these have. Yet, would you listen?

@Iconoclast.

Look to the Scriptures.

They do not state or even hint at any wrath from God being endured by the Son for us. NOT a single verse.

Now, either the Scriptures are right, or your thinking as presented by the abundant posting you have copied and pasted are correct. By attempting to represent a scheme that is not foundational to the presentation of Scriptures, you are not following a basic principle of the superiority of the Word over the human conjuring.

Which are we going to assume is right?

To post scripture verses without understanding the words in them as you two have done is not to have the actual scripture.
Scripture is God given.
The teachers you reject from many backgrounds speak with one voice.
You just strip away the substance.
We were all children of wrath, even as othersEph2:3....you deny there was any wrath, it just vanished?
I will stick with what I and these teachers all saw.

 

[agedman]

To post scripture verses without understanding the words in them as you two have done is not to have the actual scripture.
Scripture is God given.
The teachers you reject from many backgrounds speak with one voice.
You just strip away the substance.
We were all children of wrath, even as othersEph2:3....you deny there was any wrath, it just vanished?
I will stick with what I and these teachers all saw.

The problem being that I have not yet read a single Scripture from any of the threads that presents that the wrath of God was poured out upon the Son.

You haven't produced one. If you did, then I missed it in all that you posted, so perhaps I need an actual post number to go back and read.

As for Ephesians 2:3, here is the passage:

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

I see that we were all most certainly children of wrath, for as Romans 1 and 2 specify, we were ungodly.

However, I do not see God pouring His wrath out upon the Son anywhere in this passage.

I do see we are made alive with Christ. and the rest is all past tense - raised, seated, made, saved, created.

Now, perhaps I missed something. Would you gently show me where the Wrath of God is presented in this passage?

If you admit that it is not, then either someone you are relying upon is wrong, or the Scripture is wrong.

If you can find it, then please lets look at it, together.

 

[Iconoclast]

The problem being that I have not yet read a single Scripture from any of the threads that presents that the wrath of God was poured out upon the Son.

You haven't produced one. If you did, then I missed it in all that you posted, so perhaps I need an actual post number to go back and read.

As for Ephesians 2:3, here is the passage:

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

I see that we were all most certainly children of wrath, for as Romans 1 and 2 specify, we were ungodly.

However, I do not see God pouring His wrath out upon the Son anywhere in this passage.

I do see we are made alive with Christ. and the rest is all past tense - raised, seated, made, saved, created.

Now, perhaps I missed something. Would you gently show me where the Wrath of God is presented in this passage?

If you admit that it is not, then either someone you are relying upon is wrong, or the Scripture is wrong.

If you can find it, then please lets look at it, together.

The wrath of God is in the passages rom1.eph2.
Where did it go?
We see it is not in rom8:1
Something happened.
I and all those I have posted think scripture tells us...something took place at the cross to remove it from the elect by satisfying the laws demands.
You evidently avoid that.
The fact that you are not looking at the links shows you are m.j ot really concerned as I suspected.
So they are for those who want to read and gain understanding.

 

[JonC]

The wrath of God is in the passages rom1.eph2.
Where did it go?
We see it is not in rom8:1
Something happened.
I and all those I have posted think scripture tells us...something took place at the cross to remove it from the elect by satisfying the laws demands.
You evidently avoid that.
The fact that you are not looking at the links shows you are m.j ot really concerned as I suspected.
So they are for those who want to read and gain understanding.

Where did wrath "go"??????

This is pure philosophy. Where did wrath go? Where does your wrath go when it is no longer against another?

Something did happen on the cross. Man was reconciled to God. Christ was caused to suffer and die by evil men who considered Him stricken by God. This was God's predetermined plan, His will.

 

[Iconoclast]

Where did wrath "go"??????

This is pure philosophy. Where did wrath go? Where does your wrath go when it is no longer against another?

Something did happen on the cross. Man was reconciled to God. Christ was caused to suffer and die by evil men who considered Him stricken by God. This was God's predetermined plan, His will.

You seek to avoid the truth by your word games and carnal philosophy.
By perverting the meaning of 3 verses loosely cobbled together you avoid the truth.
You claim man was reconciled without any explanation as to how.
Yes...where did the wrath against sin go.....who took the punishment?
You suggest unpunished sin.
The cross was predetermined....it was the Lamb slain...not the lamb as a victim

 

[JonC]

You seek to avoid the truth by your word games and carnal philosophy.
By perverting the meaning of 3 verses loosely cobbled together you avoid the truth.
You claim man was reconciled without any explanation as to how.
Yes...where did the wrath against sin go.....who took the punishment?
You suggest unpunished sin.
The cross was predetermined....it was the Lamb slain...not the lamb as a victim

@Iconoclast

First, it is not me who is playing word games. I am saying Scripture means what it says. You say "finished" means "paid". You say the "whole world" means "the elect in the whole world". You say "for" means "instead of". You add to Scripture what you feel Scripture teaches.

I'm just asking.....what do you mean by "where did the wrath go?".

Why do you believe somebody has to take the punishment?

Why do you feel God has a need to punish, even if the punishment is not directed at the guilty?

Your view seems to reflect a very weak and needy God, controlled by what can only be described as a flawed moral philosophy. God does not need to punish sinful actions.

The problem is not sinful actions but us being sinners. God's wrath is against wickedness. Sins (actions) cannot be punished. Sins (wickedness) can. And that simply cannot be transferred.

You need to move away from philosophy and accept Scripture as more than just an "empty hull" to be filled by Reformed theology.

You have been saved much too long to remain so ignorant towards what is written in Scripture. It is time for you to seek out the meat of the Word.

 

[Salty]

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