I need some proof please.......

[russell55]

The death of Christ paid the price for the sin nature of all people

If Christ paid for the sin nature of all people then why do we all remain by nature objects of God's wrath unless and up until the time we are quickened by God's Spirit? (Ephesians 2)

If.....

The only sin that sends a person to hell is the sin of unbelief.

then how can

the unsaved [be] judged according to their works. ?

And how can people be accumulating wrath for themselves in the day of wrath, when God renders to each man according to his works?

People are sent to hell for their sins--one of which is unbelief. Unbelief is, of course, a very significant sin, because it is the sin that seals their fate; but they are already condemned.for their evil deeds.

Since there are multitudes from every kindred, tribe, nation, etc. it goes to reason that even now extinct tribes and people are there (EVERY tribe...) and the gospel never reached these people. Obviously this has to be infants that died.

I more or less agree here, although I think the word "obviously" is overstating your case.

I'm just not crazy about your atonement theory....

 

[u-r-a-blessing]

I'm just not crazy about your atonement theory

Russell, I'm sory you're not crazy about it, but it's not a theory, it's the truth according to Scripture. Perhaps this is a topic for a different thread. But, to briefly answer your questions...

If Christ paid for the sin nature of all people then why do we all remain by nature objects of God's wrath unless and up until the time we are quickened by God's Spirit? (Ephesians 2)

Because God by His nature cannot tolerate sin. Their Adamic sin nature has been paid for positionally, but they have not "claimed it" (believed) practically.

The only sin that sends a person to hell is the sin of unbelief.

then how can
quote:

the unsaved [be] judged according to their works. ?

And how can people be accumulating wrath for themselves in the day of wrath, when God renders to each man according to his works?

They are judged for their works and are accumulating wrath because their degree of punishment in hell is based on their works. Hitler will have it a lot hotter than Mr. Moral. Both are in hell, but there are degrees of punishment in hell.

People are sent to hell for their sins--one of which is unbelief.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Unbelief is THE ONLY sin a person is sent to hell for. Read John 3:17-18. A person is not sent to hell because of their sin nature (their sins). Christ paid for that on the cross. I already mentioned the Romans passage in my first post. Another good verse is I John 2:2.

I know that all babies, abortions, mis-carries, etc. go to heaven based on Biblical truth. I was just trying to give everyone a wider Biblical basis for this truth.

Thanks for your input.

 

[russell55]

Originally posted by u-r-a-blessing:
I'm sory you're not crazy about it, but it's not a theory, it's the truth according to Scripture.

Actually, thats exactly the reason I'm not crazy about it.....I don't think its the truth according to scriptures.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! Unbelief is THE ONLY sin a person is sent to hell for. Read John 3:17-18.

John 3: 17-18 says that the one who does not believe is condemned already They are already condemned, and the only way out of that death sentence is through faith.

A person is not sent to hell because of their sin nature (their sins).

First of all, their sin nature and their sins are NOT the same thing. And people ARE condemned because of their nature. See the Ephesians 2 passage--those who are dead in sin are by nature condemned, just like we were until we were made alive together with Christ.

Furthermore, if those who go to hell are judged FROM THEIR DEEDS (which Rev. says is so, and which you seem to agree with), then their actual sinful deeds are clearly included as part of the basis for their condemnation. If they are punished for them in hell, then they are condemned for them.

A murderer goes to prison because he commited murder. A plea for a pardon may be his only escape from his sentence. But he is still condemned for his murder, not because he refuses to ask for a pardon.

Christ paid for that on the cross.

The benefit of the propitiation made on the cross only come to us through faith--See Romans 3:24 or 25ish.

I already mentioned the Romans passage in my first post.

And that says nothing about the the benefits of the cross being APPLIED to every single person. The benefits of Christ's obedience come to all who are in Him, in the same way that the detriments of Adams disobedience come to all who are in him.

Another good verse is I John 2:2.

Yes, and we benefit from that propitiation only through faith. (Romans 3 again)

 

[Trotter]

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another Romans 2:13-15

Those who have never heard the gospel are to be judged by the law written on their hearts. This law is the inate ability to differeniate between good and bad. How has an infant violated this law? He hasn't.

This is a question that my wife and I struggled with for a long time. You see, we've lost two children, and the thought that they are no with God was killing us. But God showed us this truth. What David said is well and good, but this Scripture showed us that our children were judged by God's law written upon their hearts. Since neither had time or opportunity to violate this law, my wife and I now are able to rest in the peace of the knowledge that one day we will get to be reunited with our two sons. Praise the Lord!

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[u-r-a-blessing]

Russell, thanks for the debate. I'm not going to take the time to go through the whole doctrine here, but I'll make a few more comments and probably leave it at that.

Actually, thats exactly the reason I'm not crazy about it.....I don't think its the truth according to scriptures.

Then all our points are worthless because you're not going to change my mind and apparently I'm not going to change yours. With your position you are going to have to say that all infants go to hell, otherwise you are going against what you say Scripture teaches. Everyone conceived has a sin nature (I assume you will agree). Infants, abortions, etc. don't accept Christ by faith and are condemned by their sin nature. Thus, according to what you are arguing here, they have to go to hell. How do you get around what you say Scripture teaches to allow any infant, abortion, etc. into heaven? At least come out and say they all go to hell and be consistent with what you say Scripture teaches.

John 3: 17-18 says that the one who does not believe is condemned already They are already condemned, and the only way out of that death sentence is through faith.

Look again at what the verse says. (Take out the comma because it shouldn't be there). "but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed..." It does not say they are condemned already because they have a sin nature. It does not say they are condemned already because of any other sins. It says they are condemned already because they have not believed. Again, NO BELIEF is the ONLY thing that condemns them.

First of all... Furthermore... A murderer...

You're losing me here. I guess I'm not following your terminology. Condemnation, (Greek word krima) is basically the same thing as judgment. I already stated in my last post that a person is condemned, i.e. judged, because of their sinful deeds. It is the basis for their degree of punishment in hell.

Another good verse is I John 2:2.

Yes, and we benefit from that propitiation only through faith. (Romans 3 again)

Right. You benefit from it because you believed. The unsaved don't benefit from it because they don't believe. But just because they don't benefit from it doesn't change the fact that Christ paid for it. Read I John 2:2 again: "And he is the propitiation for our sins (those who believe - John is writing to Christians here): and not for ours (the people who have believed) only, but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." (this includes everyone who hasn't believed). Christ is the propitiation for the sin(s) of the saved and He is the propitiation for the sin(s) of the unsaved.

I already mentioned the Romans passage in my first post.

And that says nothing about the the benefits of the cross being APPLIED to every single person. The benefits of Christ's obedience come to all who are in Him, in the same way that the detriments of Adams disobedience come to all who are in him.

And that says nothing about the the benefits of the cross being APPLIED to every single person.

It doesn't??? Romans 5:18 "...so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life." If "all men" isn't every single person then I don't know what "all men" is.

Trotter, I like the verses you shared as well. Good stuff!

Russell, like I said earlier, the only conclusion of your doctrine is that all babies go to hell. I just wish you would come out and say it and be consistent with your beliefs. I know people who believe that all babies go to hell. But at least they are consistent and come out and say that's what they believe. I just feel sorry for them when they have to go to the funeral of an infant, go up to the parents, and say, "I'm sorry about your baby. Too bad it will be in hell for eternity. Ephesians 2 makes it clear that your baby is condemned because of his nature..."

My belief that all babies are in heaven is consistent with my doctrine, even though you don't agree with it. To me it is crystal clear. All babies are in heaven based upon what I believe the Bible clearly teaches.

I trust I have not been offensive in any way. Thank you for your interest and input and I will cease my remarks on this topic.

Russell, u-r-a-blessing. Trotter, u-r-a-blessing. I Am Blessed 16, u-r-a-blessing. God bless!

 

[savedgirl63026]

www.windowblindskillchildren.org

This is a lady from my church who lost a child for window blinds..she has verses about children in heaven
Resting in the arms of Jesus