I need to mellow out

Carson Weber,

Shoot son, welcome to the board, we're all sinners here, and even if some don't like to admit it we are all somewhat prideful, arrogant, unclean,and professedly vulgar. We all have bouts with doubt about ourselves.

Perhaps it is by the grace of God that you cannot see with your own eyes the horrid state of your soul. Us too! But let me tell you this, If you are a believer in Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah, be patient, He's the one who does the cleansing. All that is required of you is that you allow Him to do the cleaning. Don't try to keep any doors in your life closed and locked while He is doing the cleansing, for what is "your's" He leaves alone! He lets you keep what you think is important to you. If you give him all He will make it ALL new and clean.

 

Protestant churches are like the "Prodigal" son.

This is a fitting term - prodigal son - for the Protestant communities when you realize that when Jesus gave this parable, it was an allusion to the Northern Kingdom of Israel, which separated itself from the covenanted Southern Kingdom of Judah.

 

Do all of Jesus' parables have allusions to events that took place in the old testament? If not, why do you think the prodigal symbolizes that separation? Where did the northern kingdom of Israel go, when did the northern kingdom squander all it had? When did the northern kingdom return to the home of the southern kingdom?

How do you think the protestant communities are akin to the prodigal? There certainly was no wealth to be taken by the protestants to "squander". The protestants are not grovelling in a pig stye, eating alongside the Pigs.

Your holier than thou attitude is going to bring you much grief in your life young man! I'd reign it in if I were you.

 

Wow!! When did you acquire the ability to see into another person's heart?

Shame on you.

 

Yelsew, you say:

You are probably not aware of the wealth that was taken during the Protestant Reformation because Catholics and the Catholic Church don’t complain about our loses, or demand them back.
But, for your historical information, the Protestants took what they believed was their due (inheritance you might call it.)

We can start with Westminster Abbey and most of the other Cathedrals in England. Ditto for the Cathedrals in Ireland. In Dublin, to this day despite it being an overwhelmingly Catholic city, it has no present day Catholic Cathedral,…a remnant of the anti-Catholic Penal Laws. Instead St. Patrick’s Cathedral and Christ Church Cathedrals are now Protestant where as both were Catholic until they were taken by the Protestants. The artwork and churches in Britain and Europe especially Germany were pillaged and much was squandered for the money it brought.

Catholics don’t want this property back; we would rather have our separated brothers and sisters back. With all the liberalism (same sex marriages, abortion, women clergy, etc.) in the Protestant churches many have become disillusioned and are coming home.

God Bless

 

Thank you Kathryn, I was under the impression that politics played an important part in those properties being in the hands of political leaders. The church of England is a State religion, and not necessarily a protestant religion. You see the protestants left the oppression of the state and came to "new" England and established the United States, among other accomplishments.

I hope you are not deluded into thinking the Catholic church is exempt from the liberalism that you listed here. What do you think abhorant sexual behavior is? Do you think that young women in the Catholic religion do not have sex, whether voluntary or not, get pregnant and terminate those pregnancies? If yes, then you are denying the truth.

By the way, there are some differences between us that if the Official church would end them, there would be very little that separates us.

 

The Catholic Church is exempt in that it teaches that these things are sin while many protestant sects accept them.

There are ordained women in some protestant churches. There are ordained sexually active homosexuals in some protestant sects. There are same sex marriages performed in some protestant sects. Birth control is accepted in most protestant sects. Abortion is accepted in some protestant sects.

 

Shall we list the sins of the priests?

What about the sins of the parishioners?

It could be a lengthy list!

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

 

I'm back, after doing some video work on my computer. And seeing this message, I was prompted to respond.

What is the purpose of listing the sins of priests? Sinning priests certainly exist, and I am ashamed of some of them for the dasterly things they have done. But they are not alone in these sins, which, if you wanted a complete list, you will need to include all non-Catholic clergy as well!

But instead, why don't we study the lives of of the many wonderful holy men and women, Catholic and Protestant, who have been faithful to the gospel of Christ?

I am a parishioner in a Catholic parish, and I am about as big a sinner as they come. In fact, I have a sneaky feeling that all of the parishioners in my church are sinners!

Is your church different, Yelsew?

But as for "throwing stones," that advice, I have the funny feeling, is far more applicable to the non-Catholics who seemingly look upon the recent sexual scandals with a measure of glee. I have seen the tendency of too many individuals who would rub our noses in it. And I say that in my humble opinion, loving to be totally wrong in that assessment.

So, may I suggest we all put down our stones and reel in our clucking tongues and look upon the natural good we all possess, acknowledging all the while that we all fall short of the glory of God...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Almighty and eternal God, you gather
the scattered sheep

and watch over those
you have gathered.

Look kindly on all who follow Jesus,
your Son.

You have marked them
with the seal of one baptism,
now make them one
in the fullness of faith
and unite them in the bond of love.

We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Amen.

 

For Carson.............

Yelsew made the following comment concerning you:

Your holier than thou attitude is going to bring you much grief in your life young man! I'd reign it in if I were you.

Carson, oh, how often does the jealousy of an individual, over the intelectual and educational accomplishments of a person may be, it is manifested by the charge we see here!

I fear Yelsew would not be satisfied until and unless you fall totally silent in this conference!

For Yelsew, I boldly presume to be the oldest participator in this conference - I am 74 years old - and I see nothing but a confidence, competance and personal self-assurrance that makes me jump with joy to see this in a young man as he waxes (and while I wane in my old age.)

So, this "senior" would advise you to listen to this young man with consideration, an unbiased ear, and an openess to learn what the truth is.

Do you hear me, "whippersnapper"?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

 

You have me beat age-wise Pops, but not by much!

My advise to Carson is sound, as his attitude will cause him grief as mine did me, and I'm sure if you will look back into your life, yours did you.

As for your previous post, look back over the topic about the last 10 or so posts, and you will get the gist of my posts about listing the sins of the Priests.

I am deeply ashamed of the priests of Catholicism and the clergy of protestantism for their bad behavior. There simply is no reason for it except for the sin nature inherent in humanity. Sin nature does not obey the arbitrary lines of separation that we, who are involved in religion, establish. Sin nature exists wherever humans exist.

My post was in response to another post and not an attempt to dredge up the human failures within the Catholic church. Though they be many, they are in ratio equal to those of the protestant church. Both groups have some constants; they are populated with humans who sin; they are motivated by the same hopes, fears, and inducements; they both claim the same Savior; they both claim they are right, and they are both wrong. There are petty jealousies between them that seem to keep them from reuniting. And there are essential doctrinal differences of little or no consequence which if abandoned by both would facilitate re-uniting. Those doctrinal differences are inconsequential in that they neither bring about mans redemption, nor prevent God from his Justice toward mankind. They should be set aside, but like opposing soldiers with weapons, neither will lower his first, and they cannot come to agreement as to the method of lowering them simultaneously.

 

Sorry, you are changing the subject.

I listed for you things that are accepted by some protestant churches that are not accepted by the Catholic Church such as women clergy, same sex marriages, etc.

You really must learn to read a bit more carefully.

 

Are you seriously saying that to be a protestant denomination it had to have come to the New World? There are many Protestants in Europe and elsewhere who would disagree with you. The Anglicans are Protestants. I find it fascinating that you say they are not Protestant. You can say you don’t agree with what Anglicans believe, but you hardly have a case that they are not Protestants. How about the Episcopal Church… are they Protestant by your standard? They are here in the United States? Of course they share the same history as the Anglican Church. Do you realize both Anglican and Episcopal Churches consider themselves Protestant, and can historically prove their history and roots? You are correct about politics involved in their history, but that does not make them not Protestants.

God Bless

[ May 15, 2003, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

In the main, not a bad reply at all, Yelsew, but looking back over the posts in this thread still has me scratching my head a bit.

I do take exception to your comment about Carson, and as I have already said, I know him fairly well by his posts over the last couple of years, in this and in other converences. Catholic bias on my part? Perhaps, but I simply cannot buy the assertions you make about Carson, when what I see is a confidence I wish I could have enjoyed back when I was his age. We all need to address the issue of pride, against those things that increase sanctity, which of course in this context, is humility. Carson is no exception, and certainly not I. But your comments about Carson, again in my humble opinion, is unwarranted.

Now, shall we concentrate on the good we see in people rather then the bad that is always there? I have several wonderful books of the saints that are inspiring, especially my favorite - St. Bernadette of Lourdes - that wonderful saint is the very model of total humility.

I once posted a list here (I forget which thread) showing the Succession of the Popes, remember? Go back and please note the great number of them that have "St" before their names.

I mention this because I would simply like to show my non-Catholic brethren that we do have some good people in the Catholic Church.

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

But I am not interested in those that mankind has sainted. For everyone of those, there are tens of thousands just as good, just as humble, just as meek, just as saintly, etc., who are not called saints because they were not part of the Catholic church. They did not give up their responsibilites to be good husbands, fathers, mothers, wives, sons, daughters, employers, employees, etc. to be part of an organization that thives on such recognition.

That list reminds me of a list of oscar winners. Hollywood thrives on self aggrandizement. I am not impressed!

 

Except that old phrase "like mother, like daughter."

(Rev 17:5) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

 

Your post makes no sense Sola.

Is it your practice to do drive-by shootings?

 

Actually, no it is not, Carson. What it would be comparable to is, "Do you like masturbating?" My point is, whether you mean to or not, you fling out experiences and such all the time. You could NOT like bragging and still do it. Or you could like bragging and do it. But, point is that my question is not comparable to the one you posted.

Sorry I touched a nerve with you. It SEEMS to me that you brag quite often about something and seem to think you are better than others because of what you have done. I was just wondering why you quite often throwing out your accomplishments. Maybe I am just taking you the wrong way. No evil intent on my part, just an inquiring mind.

Neal

P.S. I am a sinner too in case you didn't know or think that I don't think I am!

 

Actually, no it is not, Carson. What it would be comparable to is, "Do you like masturbating?"

Neal, am I talking to a wall? Actually, yes it is. Your question is inherently inditing.

My point is, whether you mean to or not, you fling out experiences and such all the time.

And flinging out experiences equates to bragging (i.e., asserting boastfully) in what way?

You could NOT like bragging and still do it. Or you could like bragging and do it.

And now you're back to accusing me of braggadocio once again. Did you even read my response? Apparently, I'm not making headway.

But, point is that my question is not comparable to the one you posted.

Of course it is. That's why I said so.

Sorry I touched a nerve with you.

Are you really sorry? Or is this another inditing statement that insinuates that I inherenly "know" that I'm bragging and so "toucing a nerve" shows this to be the case?

It SEEMS to me that you brag quite often about something and seem to think you are better than others because of what you have done.

Well, it seems to me that you're making objects out of images. Pray tell, Neal.. what exactly did I originally state that shows forth this bragging arrogance you're all up in a fluff about? Was it reading a book? Was it walking for the Pro-Life movement? Was it all of the above?

I have one suggestion for you Neal: Grow up. You can act a little bit more mature and you can give your fellow posters a little bit more respect than you are at present.

I was just wondering why you quite often throwing out your accomplishments.

Because I enjoy sharing my life, my person, my experiences with others without having to face your ominous tribunal. I'm outspoken, as I've already stated, and I feel no reserve in sharing my thoughts - even when I have little pharisees like yourself seeking to distribute needless accusations.

I also wonder why you feel the need to continue needlessly in such an accusatory manner? Is it a lack of self-esteem on your part? Is it an inherent jealousy? Are you perhaps venting frustration in the dissatisfaction you find in the Baptist answers to Catholic arguments? Maybe you have a superiority complex?

I can turn the tide of ad hominem drool in your own direction - but is that really what we should be doing here? Is that where Christ is calling me?

I can firmly answer in the negative.

Maybe I am just taking you the wrong way.

You are.

No evil intent on my part, just an inquiring mind.

Perhaps a Private Message would be a more appropriate medium?

I've had enough of this ad hominem garbage; defending my person is something I believe is a waste of both your time and my own.

[ May 15, 2003, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Carson,

Get over yourself. I was trying to lighten the mood and now you are the one in a tiff. I am not the only one here who sees you as arrogant at times. I was just asking you a question. I don't need an essay for an answer. A simple "I do not intend my posts that way" would have sufficed.

Neal

P.S. There was NO ad hominem attack intended. If you would remember I am NOT a Catholic basher. This has nothing to do with any doctrine or theology. I was asking YOU, not trying to attack you or your theology. So, using your advice, grow up.