I Own A Business...

[matt wade]

Jordan Kurecki..., How can you pretend to love Jesus and then do something like that?

...if I had a paper route and 13 of my customers were homosexuals would I still deliver their News Papers? If I owned a taxicab would I give them a ride? If I was a mechanic would I repair their vehicles?

Makes me wonder for "whom" it is that loves Jesus?

As with a previous post, these examples are not the same. Creating something for their wedding ceremony is different than all these examples.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Jordan Kurecki..., How can you pretend to love Jesus and then do something like that?

...if I had a paper route and 13 of my customers were homosexuals would I still deliver their News Papers? If I owned a taxicab would I give them a ride? If I was a mechanic would I repair their vehicles?

Makes me wonder for "whom" it is that loves Jesus?

does delivering them paper constitute celebrating their abomination they want to try and call marriage? does giving them a ride and repair a vehicle constitute participation in their sin?

the answer is no.
These examples you give are extremely misleading...

There is a huge difference in the nature on making a celebratory cake and repairing a car.

 

[HAMel]

Jordan Kurecki..., "There is a huge difference in the nature on making a celebratory cake and repairing a car."

...what if I was repairing their vehicle so they could make it to the wedding on time? Or driving them to the wedding in my taxicab? Or delivering their newspapers for them to seek out the local "Wedding Announcements"?

It just seems to me that you can get more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. A good testimony is like that proverbial picture that's worth a thousand words. We are to hate the sin..., love the sinner. Jesus didn't come to save the righteous but He came to save the sinner.

Otherwise, ya'll keep right on down the road. Remember, I'm a cake baker and that's what I do for my living. When someone wants a cake I see a creation of mine no matter what they do with it after the fact. If a member of your church would you accept my tithes from my Cake Baking Business? If a homosexual was destitute on the side of the road would you call him an ambulance?

 

[Benjamin]

When someone wants a cake I see a creation of mine no matter what they do with it after the fact.

So it’s all about your art and money??? There are no principles to consider? Ever? And you should have no right to refuse your service based on your beliefs and morals?

I don't think you can reasonably stand by your statement: no matter what they do with it after the fact

If you were the owner of a paint and someone was buying spray paint to huff it– you’re there to sell paint – period - cha-ching…

I mean, who are you to define what constitutes the definition of marriage anyhow???

As the owner of a cake shop when someone into bestiality comes in to order a wedding cake and asks for a donkey or sheep on top – you create it for them - cha-ching…

A polygamist wants two brides on top – cha-ching…

Someone wants a big groom and a little groom on top of the cake – cha-ching…

Nah, when it comes down to it it’s all about boundary lines and the government establishing moral guidelines onto the public while dictating who they must give service to. We need to be very careful when allowing the government to take away protection of rights to refuse service in our private businesses. I say we should have the freedom to be a draw our own line and refuse to give service according to moral principles – let them go elsewhere – it’s a free country or it is not - do not give them right to force our service where we do not wish to give it.

 

[Inspector Javert]

...what if I was repairing their vehicle so they could make it to the wedding on time? Or driving them to the wedding in my taxicab? Or delivering their newspapers for them to seek out the local "Wedding Announcements"?

Driving a taxi is at best secondarily related......not directly related.
People who have a newspaper delivered receive the paper regularly as subscribers.
These analogies are so irrelevant.

It just seems to me that you can get more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.

The Scriptures teach that both honey and vinegar are productive:
Jde 1:22
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jde 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

A good testimony is like that proverbial picture that's worth a thousand words.

A picture is not worth a thousand words:
Alexander Pope puts paid to that cliche' in 8 words....

In a quote referencing Jesus' turning water into wine Pope says:

"The conscious water saw its Master and blushed."

Paint that.

(example bogarted from Ravi Zacharias)
We are people of a BOOK.
We worship the "Logos"...the "Word".

Images are the revelations of idol-worshippers.

We are to hate the sin..., love the sinner. Jesus didn't come to save the righteous but He came to save the sinner.

And we are to be no partaker in other men's sins:
1Ti 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
Some people in good conscience would perceive being a direct contractor to a homosexual union as being immediately enabling and a partaker in a direct affront to God and his picture of the relationship between himself and his bride. I can't blame anyone for refusing.

Otherwise, ya'll keep right on down the road. Remember, I'm a cake baker and that's what I do for my living.

Jesus was a carpenter for a living....
Honestly ask yourself if (provided it were legal) a homosexual couple asked him to build a "honeymoon suite"/ "Master bedroom" for them as an addition to their household.
Would he do so?
If they asked him to build them a King-sized bed-frame?
A crib in case they intend to adopt a child?
Don't be overly quick to answer that question.

When someone wants a cake I see a creation of mine no matter what they do with it after the fact.

This isn't "someone wanting a cake"....
For instance...if a man (who incidentally were gay) was celebrating a birthday or graduation and wanted to commission said confection for a celebration, I doubt anyone would refuse. But you aren't suggesting doing nothing for him because of his lifestyle....you are suggesting plying your craft in celebration of an abomination....
Ask yourself, would that be to the glory of God?
We are to do ALL things to the glory of God....including plying our trades.

If a member of your church would you accept my tithes from my Cake Baking Business?

That question is beyond irrelevant.

If a homosexual was destitute on the side of the road would you call him an ambulance?

If the answer to that question is not immediately obvious to you, I don't think you quite understand why some people object to baking wedding cakes for homosexuals.......
Of course he would.
That is not remotely the same as baking a wedding cake for him.

If an unrepentant serial killer asked you to bake a cake celebrating the 15th Anniversary of his rape and murder of a 9-year-old boy would you do it?
<---that is a relevant analogy B.T.W.

Remember, you do this for a living right?
Should I ask myself if I'd accept your tithe from the profits of said transaction?


I understand why some good Christians may disagree in good conscience.
But, I think they are wrong for it, and haven't really thought it through. But, nonetheless, I highly regard and respect those who would refuse. They have good reason to and should feel quite free in good conscience to do so.

I feel like those arguing FOR baking the cake etc....are trying to be too clever by half.

 

[HAMel]

...me thinks some of you folks need to mature and in the process, step down from your self-imposed and self-righteous plateau of Holier-Than-Thou lofty position of Holy Discernment. Cha-ching... :wavey:

Frankly, I don't give a camel's hind end what some of you (or all of you) think as none of you walk in my shoes nor will any of you have to account for me and my actions at the appointed time. :thumbsup:

I am totally against same sex marriage!

If I were against Born Again Baptist Believers would it be right for me to refuse YOU a service for which I am in business to otherwise provide? I mean, I might be a Buddhist follower so therefore I'd be justified in discriminating against either you, Inspector Javert, or you, Benjamin?

Get a grip, folks.

 

[Rolfe]

...me thinks some of you folks need to mature and in the process, step down from your self-imposed and self-righteous plateau of Holier-Than-Thou lofty position of Holy Discernment. Cha-ching... :wavey:

Frankly, I don't give a camel's hind end what some of you (or all of you) think as none of you walk in my shoes nor will any of you have to account for me and my actions at the appointed time. :thumbsup:

Why did you start this thread? Seeking personal reinforcement?

 

[Darrell C]

Driving a taxi is at best secondarily related......not directly related.
People who have a newspaper delivered receive the paper regularly as subscribers.
These analogies are so irrelevant.

The Scriptures teach that both honey and vinegar are productive:
Jde 1:22
And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jde 1:23
And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

A picture is not worth a thousand words:
Alexander Pope puts paid to that cliche' in 8 words....

In a quote referencing Jesus' turning water into wine Pope says:

"The conscious water saw its Master and blushed."

Paint that.

(example bogarted from Ravi Zacharias)
We are people of a BOOK.
We worship the "Logos"...the "Word".

Images are the revelations of idol-worshippers.

And we are to be no partaker in other men's sins:
1Ti 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.
Some people in good conscience would perceive being a direct contractor to a homosexual union as being immediately enabling and a partaker in a direct affront to God and his picture of the relationship between himself and his bride. I can't blame anyone for refusing.

Jesus was a carpenter for a living....
Honestly ask yourself if (provided it were legal) a homosexual couple asked him to build a "honeymoon suite"/ "Master bedroom" for them as an addition to their household.
Would he do so?
If they asked him to build them a King-sized bed-frame?
A crib in case they intend to adopt a child?
Don't be overly quick to answer that question.

This isn't "someone wanting a cake"....
For instance...if a man (who incidentally were gay) was celebrating a birthday or graduation and wanted to commission said confection for a celebration, I doubt anyone would refuse. But you aren't suggesting doing nothing for him because of his lifestyle....you are suggesting plying your craft in celebration of an abomination....
Ask yourself, would that be to the glory of God?
We are to do ALL things to the glory of God....including plying our trades.

That question is beyond irrelevant.

If the answer to that question is not immediately obvious to you, I don't think you quite understand why some people object to baking wedding cakes for homosexuals.......
Of course he would.
That is not remotely the same as baking a wedding cake for him.

If an unrepentant serial killer asked you to bake a cake celebrating the 15th Anniversary of his rape and murder of a 9-year-old boy would you do it?
<---that is a relevant analogy B.T.W.

Remember, you do this for a living right?
Should I ask myself if I'd accept your tithe from the profits of said transaction?


I understand why some good Christians may disagree in good conscience.
But, I think they are wrong for it, and haven't really thought it through. But, nonetheless, I highly regard and respect those who would refuse. They have good reason to and should feel quite free in good conscience to do so.

I feel like those arguing FOR baking the cake etc....are trying to be too clever by half.

Do you think that the one that baked a cake for a gay marriage would be in error if he/she did not know what it was for? Should the baker ask for clarification of the customer's orientation before baking any cakes?

Again, I would say it is for the individual to decide where they draw the line in rendering a service which might be considered supporting gays. The refusal to deny services should be, in this country, up to the owner, at least in terms of common sense.

If objections are made because that person feels it violates "religious" principles, we should be free to maintain our position without interference from the government. When the government steps in and says we have to...the line is crossed.

The individual decision of the business owner, if related to religious objection, is something to be worked out in a religious setting, not governmental.

What we can say is that there is an opportunity for the owner to witness in a number of ways to those he is approached by. Refusing to write the names might be one line that can be drawn, and the customer could have it done elsewhere or find another bakery. This can present the owner's position without an outright refusal that would hinder governmental interference.

In this situation, I suggest that there can be an attempt on both parts to glorify themselves, rather than God.

As far as the Pope's statement, the saying is a picture is worth a thousand words, which implies a picture already in existence and does not lend itself to conflicting concepts.

In the Lord's day open homosexuality in Israel was not something that is seen as common from Scripture, and it is doubtful one would approach Him with such a request. Herod did not even approach Him though he was desirous to speak with Him. We do see John protest adultery, which ended in his death. But again John was not approached for an endorsement, and when homosexuals use this particular scenario to further their agenda then that would be a cause for refusal, in my opinion.

My business does not allow for me to know who many of the customers I provide services for are before already called in. I think it would be trifling to show up and refuse service due to their orientation. I do not see this as glorifying God, but accommodating my own feelings about gays, and possibly negating an intentional meeting between the Lord and these people.

God bless.

 

[Inspector Javert]

...me thinks some of you folks need to mature and in the process

We all do.

Frankly, I don't give a camel's hind end what some of you (or all of you) think

And you express your not caring what others think by opening up a debateable proposition on the world-wide web?

as none of you walk in my shoes nor will any of you have to account for me and my actions at the appointed time.

Ummmm....
You personally won't account for those who would (and have) refused service on judgement day either...
We are merely debating a hypothetical proposition which (by your own admission) doesn't apply to you personally....
So, how exactly did this become about YOU PERSONALLY and accounting for you on judgement day???
Methinks you are in a tizzy for no good reason.
Some of us disagree.
We are explaining why.
No need to make it personal or about you individually.

I am totally against same sex marriage!

We all know.
No one suggests otherwise.
Precisely which miscreant suggested as much....I'll beat him up for you.

If I were against Born Again Baptist Believers would it be right for me to refuse YOU a service for which I am in business to otherwise provide?

Absolutely....Yes....unequivocally.
If this were a country wherein freedom were valued, absolutely and unreservedly....yes.

I mean, I might be a Buddhist follower so therefore I'd be justified in discriminating against either you, Inspector Javert, or you, Benjamin

Speaking for I.J.....
Yes.
I won't speak for Benjamin...but I know he'd agree.

Get a grip, folks.

We have one.

You are getting into a tiff too quickly and taking it too personally, I think.

I respect your position and respectfully also disagree and am expressing why.
Please show some of the same respect.

Now, as a challenge for your line of thinking may I ask you this question:
If I as an admitted serial killer wished a cake to celebrate the anniversary of a murder I committed via a cake would you bake it?

If a pot-head asked you to bake a "4-20" cake would you do so?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_(cannabis_culture)

If a pornographer asked you to bake a risqué cake with some questionable images to celebrate his company's 20th Anniversary of existence would you bake it?

The First Baptist Church in my town was burned down by an arsonist about 20 years ago....if the guilty man wished a depiction celebrating it should you be required to do so?

These are directly related scenarios.
Please think about them.
God bless.

 

[HAMel]

You're beating a dead horse, Inspector..., but carry on as it appears you're in the fault finding business.

As I clearly said..., early on..., if I bake a cake what the customer does with it is not my fault nor will I be held accountable for their actions. If you lead someone down the isle and they make a profession of faith and on the way home said convert murders someone..., is that your problem? Will you be held accountable for their actions? Did you aide and abet said murder? If I bake a cake am I aiding and abetting homosexual life styles? They are already here..., amongst us..., and they ain't goin' away.

So, end of subject. I do have a life to live and I'm not going to waste much more time entertaining you folks.

 

[Inspector Javert]

You're beating a dead horse, Inspector..., but carry on as it appears you're in the fault finding business.

HAMel....
I've read your posts for quite a long time:
I've never seen you get tiffy so quickly.
I'm not in any "fault-finding business" nor am I the enemy here.

I respectfully disagree with you and fully appreciate the sincerity with which those who disagree with me do so.
I believe you are quite able to do the same without it being "fault-finding", vile, un-Christian or "immature" or "self-righteous" as you previously suggested.
We can peaceably disagree here:

As I clearly said..., early on..., if I bake a cake what the customer does with it is not my fault nor will I be held accountable for their actions.

Yes....I know.
What the customer does is not something you will be held accountable for:
I agreed with you the last time and I still agree with you.

Whether or not one bakes the cake for them is something for your conscience....
That is the subject of the O.P. and that is what we are to be judged upon.

If you lead someone down the isle and they make a profession of faith and on the way home said convert murders someone..., is that your problem?

No, if you bake a cake on the one-year anniversary of the action to celebrate it if they asked you to.....is, in fact, your problem if you choose to do so.

Will you be held accountable for their actions?

No.
But if they asked you bake a celebratory cake in celebration of the anniversary of that murder, you are only accountably for aiding and abetting their celebration of the deed.

Did you aide and abet said murder?

No.

If I bake a cake am I aiding and abetting homosexual life styles?

If it is a cake made to celebrate the act of homosexuality....
I think so, yes....and would therefore be against my conscience.
Not yours apparently and you in good faith disagree.
I respect that.
Please respect the good-intentions of those who think as I do.

But here's the larger point you are missing I think:
Now, your scenario is akin to this one:
If the murderer you led down the aisle one year later asked you to bake a cake to celebrate the 1-year anniversary of that murder....should you bake the cake?

They are already here..., amongst us..., and they ain't goin' away.

As are murderers, drug-dealers, rapists, arsonists and pot-heads.....
Would you bake a cake in celebration of any of those activites?

So, end of subject. I do have a life to live and I'm not going to waste much more time entertaining you folks.

Please don't get angry.

I respect your views....and your honestly held conviction in holding them
I will continue to.
I refuse for this to become a divisive issue.
I only hope you will respect that of myself and others who see it differently, and open yourself up to our critiques.
I think they are valid.
Your are a brother in Christ.

God bless.

 

[Rolfe]

If I bake a cake am I aiding and abetting homosexual life styles?

Some would say yes. That does not mean that they need to "grow up".

So, end of subject. I do have a life to live and I'm not going to waste much more time entertaining you folks.

Again, if you did not want your ears scratched, why did you begin this thread?

 

[HAMel]

Rolf..., I'm too old and been down the road too many miles to have my "ears scratched" by any of God's Right Hand Men on this forum. As I said, it's time for some to grow up.

..."go away boy you bother me."

 

[Rolfe]

Rolf..., I'm too old and been down the road too many miles to have my "ears scratched" by any of God's Right Hand Men on this forum. As I said, it's time for some to grow up.

..."go away boy you bother me."

This post says much about you.

You still have not said why you started this thread.

 

[padredurand]

So what so many seem to be saying is if you bake wedding cakes, supply the place for weddings or receptions, have a limo service, are a photographer or a florist and refuse to cater to gays you are a person of strong conviction.

If you do anything else and cater to gays you are just doing a job and not supporting the lifestyle.

Got it. :thumbs:

 

[Use of Time]

So what so many seem to be saying is if you bake wedding cakes, supply the place for weddings or receptions, have a limo service, are a photographer or a florist and refuse to cater to gays you are a person of strong conviction.

If you do anything else and cater to gays you are just doing a job and not supporting the lifestyle.

Got it. :thumbs:

It's funny how over the months that the "wedding cake" has become the metric of everyone's personal conviction. We really need to find another example. :laugh:

 

[matt wade]

So what so many seem to be saying is if you bake wedding cakes, supply the place for weddings or receptions, have a limo service, are a photographer or a florist and refuse to cater to gays you are a person of strong conviction.

If you do anything else and cater to gays you are just doing a job and not supporting the lifestyle.

Got it. :thumbs:

What you should get out of this thread is this: You guys think it is perfectly fine for a pastor to decide who they will do weddings for. After all, a pastor has the right to stick to their convictions. If a baker decides to stick to their convictions and not bake a cake for the same wedding, they are a bigot.

 

[Don]

I'm appalled at the "all or nothing" mentality of this situation. See, this is the beauty of the capitalist system: don't like the service? Don't like the way they treated you? Then don't do business with them. Enough people don't like them, and don't do business with them, and guess what? They're not doing business anymore.

Instead, we have this mentality of "you WILL provide me what I want, period."

I like what church mouse guy wrote in another thread, and I apologize if it's already been said here: Ask a gay cakemaker to make a "celebrate heterosexuality" themed cake. Will we still see a willing making of the cake?

 

[matt wade]

I'm appalled at the "all or nothing" mentality of this situation. See, this is the beauty of the capitalist system: don't like the service? Don't like the way they treated you? Then don't do business with them. Enough people don't like them, and don't do business with them, and guess what? They're not doing business anymore.

Instead, we have this mentality of "you WILL provide me what I want, period."

I like what church mouse guy wrote in another thread, and I apologize if it's already been said here: Ask a gay cakemaker to make a "celebrate heterosexuality" themed cake. Will we still see a willing making of the cake?

Completely agree with you. Government should not force private business to be in business with anyone they don't want to be.

 

[Inspector Javert]

So what so many seem to be saying is if you bake wedding cakes, supply the place for weddings or receptions, have a limo service, are a photographer or a florist and refuse to cater to gays you are a person of strong conviction.

If you do anything else and cater to gays you are just doing a job and not supporting the lifestyle.

Got it. :thumbs:

No.
If you ACTUALLY think (you don't) that that is what they "seem to be saying"...
Than you are an illiterate who can't read English....

No one has said that.
No one says that but you.
But...you know that.
You aren't stupid.