I think most Baptists have Romans 7 totally wrong

[Aaron]

There is nothing sinful about music anywhere in Scripture but it is clear that unwholesome words are sinful.

An unwholesome word is what? That which offends ann?

 

[Amy.G]

An unwholesome word is what? That which offends ann?

Have you watched TV lately? Don't tell me you don't know what unwholesome words are.

 

[annsni]

An unwholesome word is what? That which offends ann?

Nope. That which our culture knows is unwholesome. Even the world knows they are bad words. Why else would heathens apologize to me if they say something bad when they know I'm a Christian? It speaks volumes when an unsaved person knows better than a saved person.

 

[AnotherBaptist]

...People who think Christians are at war with sin (sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but always making progress) base this belief off of Romans 7:23,...

Actually, I base it off of this passage:

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Sin in the Christian's life comes through the flesh (or it's members). While it is true that our Soul cannot sin and we have the Power of the Holy Spirit to overcome, resist and defeat sin in our lives, it doesn't mean we always will and when we do fail, it is because of our still present sinful flesh. Our Redemption isn't just about our Souls. It's also about the ultimate release of our bodies from the presence and effect of sin. It happens when the Church gets gathered/changed together, alive or first resurrected.

 

[Aaron]

Nope. That which our culture knows is unwholesome.

Just pointing out that this is an appeal to nature, or common knowledge, not to Scripture.

Even the world knows they are bad words. Why else would heathens apologize to me if they say something bad when they know I'm a Christian?

Why else would heathens know that rock music ain't church, it's sex and drugs?

It speaks volumes when an unsaved person knows better than a saved person.

Exactly.

 

[annsni]

Just pointing out that this is an appeal to nature, or common knowledge, not to Scripture.

Why else would heathens know that rock music ain't church, it's sex and drugs?

Exactly.

I've seen sex and drugs amongst those who are into classical music. It's not the music but the culture that uses the music.

It's like candles. Are candles sinful? Well, they evoke emotion, are used in rituals and are used in sexual daliances. However, they're also used on my almost 7 year old's birthday cake. Does that make the birthday cake evil and sinful? Nope.

 

[Aaron]

I've seen sex and drugs amongst those who are into classical music. It's not the music but the culture that uses the music.

It's like candles. Are candles sinful? Well, they evoke emotion, are used in rituals and are used in sexual daliances. However, they're also used on my almost 7 year old's birthday cake. Does that make the birthday cake evil and sinful? Nope.

Music is not an object. It is an action, but that's a topic for another thread. My point is that you're arguing against your own logic, and It's a hoot!

 

[jygf77]

Hello, Christ is Risen!

For some reason this thread came to mind as I was meditating on Romans 7 the other day, and I've realized I easily could have been partially wrong in my original post.

Specifically, I'm referring to where I said:

When Paul says, back in chapter 7 verse 20, "the good I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want," he is not refering to himself now as a Christian. That would contradict the entire point he is making. What Paul is describing in chapter 7 is how he felt back when he was trying to attain righteousness through the Law. Paul is relating to us, in first person, his experience of when he was in sin which, through the Law, had him dead. (7:9).

I could have been wrong there. Paul very easily could have been (and I now believe actually was) referring to himself in the present. However, the "evil" he does not want to do that he refers to is unintentional sin. So the point remains the same. I also wouldn't be surprised if that is a common orthodox understanding of the passage. I haven't looked into that yet though. Regardless, the conclusion that we must avoid intentional sin to work out our salvation, by grace obeying Christ's command "be perfect," remains.

I suppose that may mean that, likewise, John could have been talking about present unintentional sin in the passage I cited from his letter towards the bottom of my original post. However, I tend to still think he was referring to past sin there, given the grammatical structures he uses. In any event,

May God's peace guard your heart and mind. In Christ,
jygff77

 

[jygf77]

Dear AnotherBaptist, Christ is Risen!

My joy, I apologize. I think you may have misunderstood me, and it is my fault. What I meant here is that people think all Christians are *always* at war with *intentional* sin (and by war I mean sometimes intentionally sinning, sometimes not intentionally sinning). Of course all Christians sin unintentionally; we're all human. However, the goal of the Christian life (the achievable goal that indeed we must achieve to be saved by His grace unto Life everlasting) is to stop sinning unintentionally. God only knows true intent, but we have to do our best. Christians can be perfect in intent, and indeed must always strive to be until God sees fit to give us His absolutely perfect holiness.

Originally Posted by jygf77: "...People who think Christians are at war with sin (sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but always making progress) base this belief off of Romans 7:23,..."

Actually, I base it off of this passage: Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Sin in the Christian's life comes through the flesh (or it's members). While it is true that our Soul cannot sin and we have the Power of the Holy Spirit to overcome, resist and defeat sin in our lives, it doesn't mean we always will and when we do fail, it is because of our still present sinful flesh. Our Redemption isn't just about our Souls. It's also about the ultimate release of our bodies from the presence and effect of sin. It happens when the Church gets gathered/changed together, alive or first resurrected.

May God's peace guard your heart and mind. In Christ,
jygff77

 

[MB]

The 'study note' under Romans 7:17 in Zondervan's "NASB Study Bible" (edited by Kenneth Barker) says this: "Not an attempt to escape moral responsibility but a statement of the great control sin can have over a Christians life." If the apostle Paul read that, he would go find Kenneth Barker and ol' Kenny Boy would know he had barked up the wrong tree. Sin can have no control over a Christian's life, by definition. Christian means "little Christ." If that isn't enough to convince you (and I hope it isn't), allow me to continue...

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. (1 John 3:7-8).

John knew that Kenneth Barker and whoever else would be leading us astray, trying to get us to believe that a righteous person can sin. That is why John wrote what he wrote. Many Christians make claims like, "as believers we must wage war against the sin that remains in us." This is a lie. Although many have been decieved into thinking it is true, it remains a lie nonetheless, and it decieves many people into thinking it is normal for a Christian to sin.

Many things Scripture says can be devastating to someone's life and eternity if they are misunderstood and taken out of context. For instance, take Christ's command to hate our families. Looking at Scripture on the whole, and especially at the context of individual verses, is absolutely critical to understanding Scripture.

People who think Christians are at war with sin (sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but always making progress) base this belief off of Romans 7:23, however, the truth is that true Christians have no sin remaining in them. They sin no more. The man who says, "I know [Christ]," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2:4). No one who lives in [God] keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen [God] or known him. (1 John 3:5)

Many Christians think Romans chapter 7 teaches that believers can (and indeed must) sin and still have sin in them. They totally misunderstand Romans 7, because there Paul is talking about what sin did to him. He is describing his former thinking, but he uses present tense to describe it. This can be confusing, especially because people stop reading at the end of chapter 7. The original letter he wrote did not have any such chapter breaks.

In verse 7:25 Paul says he is a slave to God's law in the mind and to sin's law in the sinful nature. Paul is not saying that his mind is good and his body bad. He is saying the law is good, but it is unable to save any man (see Romans 10). Paul is saying both his mind (with the law) and his body (with sin) are unable to do anything righteous.

The key, however, is to see that ultimately Paul concludes (on into chapter 8) that "through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do... God did by sending his own Son... to be a sin offering... in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us... who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Paul's entire point is that he was eventually "set free", through Christ, to live according to the Spirit. He continues, "..those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. ... Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die.

When Paul says, back in chapter 7 verse 20, "the good I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want," he is not refering to himself now as a Christian. That would contradict the entire point he is making. What Paul is describing in chapter 7 is how he felt back when he was trying to attain righteousness through the Law. Paul is relating to us, in first person, his experience of when he was in sin which, through the Law, had him dead. (7:9).

This is a very important concept Christians need to understand, because by misunderstanding it thousands if not millions think they are able to be "disobedient believers." The truth that the apostle John warned us people would try to lead us astray from (top of this page) is this. The righteous act righteous, for they know God, and sinners act sinful, for they are of the devil. Disobedient believers end up in the same place as the disobedient un-believers. As Paul said above, "for if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die."

Another verse many Christians misquote is where James wrote, "Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check." (James 2). They think James is telling us that everyone sins all the time. That is not at all what James is saying.

James, rather, is talking about people who want to teach others. No one but God says the truth all the time and never makes an honest mistake. We all will accidentally tell someone something that is untrue at this time or another, and that doesn't make us sinners or liars unless we intended to deceive. It just makes us imperfect humans. James is warning people to be very careful about teaching, because we all are subject to human error... and in the case of Christian doctrine, error has enormous consequences.

When Jesus told us to be perfect (Matthew 5:48), the context was not about teaching, speaking, or the common "human error" that we all make and stumble with all the time. Jesus was talking about perfect love, doing everything you do out of love for your neighbor. We *can* be perfect in that sense, and indeed we *must* be to obey Christ.

One more verse that many Christians twist is when John wrote, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8). Again, context is essential to understand what he was saying. Verse 10 clarifies what John means, "If we say we have not sinned, we make God a liar." John is not saying we must admit we are sinning. He is saying we must admit we have sinned. Indeed, it is possible to live a sin-free life after being forgiven. Christ commanded it, and in the very next verse (John 2:1) John tells us the very reason he was writing all this: "I am writing these things to you, my little children, so that you will not sin."

For more on 1 John ch. 1 and ch. 2, and some discussion about the tenses of the verbs there, see the doctrine section of my website (below)

God's peace to you,
Jason
www.acts420.com

I just want to know are you sin less today? Christ said there is no man with out sin. Our spirits have been regenerated but what of our flesh. It has not been saved nor has it been regenerated or born again. What you fail to see is that we are free from sin but our flesh still has sin dwelling with in it.
MB

 

[marke]

If you can't sit in a chair without sinning then either you are an incredibly sick person that is not walking with Christ in any way, shape, or form... or you have a misunderstanding about what sin actually is.

John said he wrote to use "so we will not sin." He meant it.

You're right, but I'm not sure the matter will get much fair attention at this rate. I believe there is much in the scripture still unknown and still sitting on the coffee table next to the chair by the TV.

 

[marke]

You have no idea what you are talking about, nor from your posts, do you have any grasp of the Gospel. You are making two fatal errors. One, you cannot live up to your own standards, and two, you are posting a works salvation.

Lesser errors you make but none the less errors, is to classify sins before a Holy God. Your quote that says "That doesn't mean we won't make mistakes. But a sincere mistake done out of love is very different from a sin done out of hate" is not what Scripture says. Sin is sin, and one is as bad as another before God.

Another quote of yours:
John says it very clearly for us. "anyone born of God does not continue to sin." When you stop sinning, you have truly been born again. If you sin, you have proven that never really knew God. He stands ready to forgive... He is the God of the 2nd chance.
But know this: being "born again" is not necessarily the same thing as "believing." Re-birth can happen when you believe, but it doesn't necessarily happen when you believe. See, for instance, John 8:30-35. Read it. Believe it.

That sir, is baloney, as I said in an above post, to put it nicely. You have truly been born again when you are regenerated from above, the moment you put your faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross, not when you stop sinning. Again, you post a works salvation. The only thing you said that was accurate is God stands ready to forgive. Your last paragraph does not even make sense. It seems to be an odd blend of God's sovereignty and free-will. If one truly believes, one is saved. One would not truly believe unless revealed to him from Above.

Instead of you wishing God's peace for others, pray for knowledge for yourself.

We should not be too hasty here. This subject deserves a fair hearing. Let the poster present the case and then we can comment on what he has said instead of what we think he is saying.

 

[marke]

I realize the OP is a hit and run, but if he decides to ever come back and defend his position, I have a question also.

Why does Paul tell the Corinthians that "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."? If Christians are already sinless, there is no need to confess anything.

The Bible sets the bar rather higher than lower for the Christian walk. Of course we sin, but we can gain victory over sin and can even walk above sin if we manage to enter into the proper mature relationship with the Lord. The point is, we are not any better Christians to be able to avoid sin in our lives, it is that we find the total victory over sin in life by walking with God.

We have a new nature which is spoken of in 1 John 3:9 as being without sin. But we also have a carnal, fleshly nature in which dwelleth no good thing, as spoken of by Paul in Romans 7 and in Gal. 5:16-17:

"This I say, then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Here is the paradox: If we walk in the Spirit we SHALL NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh, but, in our flesh, we CANNOT DO the things that we should. These things are not contradictory, but teach the same thing.

There is a secret, which I believe the OP was onto, which must be taught and learned by God's people if they are to ever walk pleasing to God. God is not pleased with Christians slogging through life in the flesh. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. How can we ever hope to 'walk in the Spirit', then?

I won't go farther for now, but I will leave this:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Rom. 8:13)

 

[marke]

First of all, God has granted me peace.
Second, I would like to know the Scriptures that allow me to break the ordinances of our government at will apart from "it is better to obey God rather than men"?
Let me ask you directly:
Have you ever broken the speed limit by even 1 mile per hour?
Run a yellow light?
J-walked?

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.​

1 Peter 2
13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.​

If so you have disobeyed the Scripture. What does it matter if it is only one Scripture (OK I gave 2)? You have broken it and have sinned (unless of course Jesus has rebuked your governor for making automobile speed limit laws or making us wait for a green light to cross the street).
Its very clear to me what God's expectation is when it comes to the laws of our land and driving automobiles (the disobedience of which could kill an innocent person).
At least be honest with God if you are a law-breaker.
Here's another singular Scripture:

Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

So it's only one Scripture, I therefore can go around lusting at will according to your philosophy.​

The Scripture says to pray without ceasing.​

Again, I guess it's OK to disobey because according to your outlook on the Bible as it's only one Scripture.​

Everyone of us needs to understand this passage:​

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.​

Our hearts are so deceitful that we often redefine sin to accomodate for those sins or find excuse for those sins which we ourselves commit.​

It's very easy for us to condemn others for the sins we ourselves do not commit (or claim we do not commit). Some how our sins beome "non-sins".

He is ready and willing to forgive those sins of His servants who acknowledge and repent of their sins.​

Revelation 2:20
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.​

Look jygf77, I know where you are coming from. Sin among His children will not be long tolerated by our Father in heaven. There are tares among the wheat and they get away with their sin because they are none of His.​

We are chastised for our wilfull sins as His children:​

The Corinthian Christians were taking communion in an unworthy fashion (1 Corinthians 11:21 - drunk). If that's not a sin what is?​

1 Corinthians 11
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

1 John

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.​

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

HankD​

When we fail to make a distinction, as God does, between the saved and the lost, we do great disservice to sinners struggling with sin. Christians are expected by God to be perfect and walk in perfection. But when believers are taught that such 'goals' are too lofty to be achieved, the saved and the lost are again dumped together back into the cesspool of sin. Nowhere in the Bible does God group the wicked with the righteous. God makes a difference between the two for many reasons.

Of course Christians sin. The Bible is written for the purpose of instructing people that God hates sin and the flesh and is never pleased by those walking in either. Christians are expected to clean themselves up and get out of that gutter, and the Bible teaches us how to do it.

Look at Peter arguing with the Lord about having his feet washed. Peter was wrong for saying he didn't just need his feet washed, but his whole body (John 13). On the surface that looked to be a mark of humility on Peter's part, admitting he was so sinful. In reality, however, there was nothing humble about it at all. He was arguing with God, just like Christians do today when the Bible tells them they are no longer filthy after they get saved, but are "clean every whit", except for their walk.

Christians need to understand that they are expected by God to walk in the Spirit and not walk in sin, and Christians CAN walk with God that way, if they apply themselves in learning how to trust God to fight the battles for them. As a final point for now, I would like to highlight 1 Cor. 6:9-11;

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? ... neither...(any and all sins and sinners) ...shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you, but (NOW) ye are washed..."

We don't have to live like a bunch of pigs in the slop. We can walk uprightly, if we can ever grow up in the Lord.

 

[marke]

There are only three possibilites with the originator of this thread. One, he is a troll as many have said. Two, he has no understanding of the Gospel or Scripture. Three, and it is related to a troll, he is here merely to push hot buttons, to see how we react, either to make fun of our faith or too much time on his hands.

You missed a fourth option, that you might not yet have it figured out at all.

 

[marke]

Hello, Christ is Risen!

For some reason this thread came to mind as I was meditating on Romans 7 the other day, and I've realized I easily could have been partially wrong in my original post.

Specifically, I'm referring to where I said:

Thanks for posting. I don't come that much because I visit other sites as well and sometimes I get locked into debates there which can take weeks to get through. I have posted over 2,000 times on each of at least 3 different sites in the last year, but on this site I look like a newbie drive-by troll, I'm sure, especially to those who may disagree with what I say.

I agree the Paul was speaking of his current inner battles as a Christian. Paul was also trying to get Christians to realize that losing the battles is not supposed to be a given in the Christian life.

I appreciated how you dealt with the issue in the previous threads. I am just finishing reading the whole thing and I appreciate you.

I could have been wrong there. Paul very easily could have been (and I now believe actually was) referring to himself in the present. However, the "evil" he does not want to do that he refers to is unintentional sin. So the point remains the same. I also wouldn't be surprised if that is a common orthodox understanding of the passage. I haven't looked into that yet though. Regardless, the conclusion that we must avoid intentional sin to work out our salvation, by grace obeying Christ's command "be perfect," remains.

I suppose that may mean that, likewise, John could have been talking about present unintentional sin in the passage I cited from his letter towards the bottom of my original post. However, I tend to still think he was referring to past sin there, given the grammatical structures he uses. In any event,

May God's peace guard your heart and mind. In Christ,
jygff77

P.S. I really messed this up. I wasn't paying attention and busted everything up because my mouse tripped up on me. I'm not goind to retype it, though. I'm sure you can put it together. Thanks again.

 

[David Lamb]

Christian means "little Christ."

(Edited to add: Sorry, just realised this is a resurrected thread)

Does it, Jason? I thought it meant "follower of Christ". Similar to the "Nicolaitans" in Revelation 2:6 & 15, who were followers of someone named Nicolaus, possiblibly Nicolaus of Antioch, not "Little Nicolauses", and Herodians in Matthew 22.16, who were supporters of the cause of King Herod, not "Little Herods".

But I don't know New Testament Greek; if someone who does know that language tells me that Cristianov does indeed mean "little Christ", I will have to think again.

Anyway, welcome to the Baptist Board!