I think we all miss the mark,

[Plain Old Bill]

raying: When it comes to theological discussions.
We use words not as God does.We use words like predestination,foreknowledge,free-will,irrestable grace,future,past, and present. As I was mulling over these ideas this morning a thought popped into my mind"silly boy those words are not mine I do'nt use those words".I don't think any of these words apply to God.What think you?:type:

 

[mcdirector]

raying: When it comes to theological discussions.
We use words not as God does.We use words like predestination,foreknowledge,free-will,irrestable grace,future,past, and present. As I was mulling over these ideas this morning a thought popped into my mind"silly boy those words are not mine I do'nt use those words".I don't think any of these words apply to God.What think you?:type:

Don't you think that this has to do with the way God made us though. He made our thought processes with a desire to categorize and that's really what we are doing when we start pidgeon-holing biblical principals. AND since those concepts are already in our noggins - those are how we pidgeon-hole. It does make me wonder what we are missing though by not being able to shake free from pre-conceived notions at times.

 

[npetreley]

raying: When it comes to theological discussions.
We use words not as God does.We use words like predestination,foreknowledge,free-will,irrestable grace,future,past, and present. As I was mulling over these ideas this morning a thought popped into my mind"silly boy those words are not mine I do'nt use those words".I don't think any of these words apply to God.What think you?:type:

The Bible uses words like predestination and foreknowledge (the latter being widely misunderstood because our English translation of the Greek word is inadequate). If the Bible uses them, why shouldn't we?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

I'm not saying we should'nt use certain words. We unlike God are stuck in a measurable world. We measure time and distance,we measure area and volume. God is not measurable.God is not stuck in ANY time dimension. God does'nt need foreknowledge since He has all knowledge all of the time.

By the way the post was'nt put up to critisize any position someone may be holding but was put up to stretch your brain just a little.So have some fun.:thumbs:

 

[DQuixote]

Thanks, POB. In your posts you often come across as a Will Rogers type. That's nice.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

People have totally missunderstood those words and even peter warns us that people will missunderstand Paul's to thier own destruction. The greatest deception of the devil is to get men to believe that there is people out there without any hope.

I really do believe this was happening in Paul's time that is why he makes a plea to the people saying that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

That he was not lying.

It is real simple to me, it is the church those who remain in Christ that God predestined to salvation.

God did make a line in the old testiment, but He left an open door for the world that was lost through the generation, that if aliens living amoung His people would circumsize every male could be treated as one of them. It isn't the circumisism of the outside but the inside, this happens when we let Him in when He knocks and change us and circumcize our heart.

We see the line of people today, but we try to close the door that God opened for the world and we really think we are doing the work of God. Just like Saul once did. Paul was growing and learning to, and maybe it was too late to cry out to the people that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, because they were already blinding by the veil that they have made through thier missunderstanding of Paul's teaching.

This veil that we have put on is still on today and it is man made. Only through trusting in Jesus and His word that this veil is removed.

We are learning and maturing every day. Sometimes we have to tear down this temple that men have built and let Jesus build it.

But just like the pharisees we rather put our stock in the words of men, instead of the word of God.

 

[Rippon]

Mr.Ps. : You said : Paul was growing and learning too , and maybe it was too late for [for him] to cry out to the people that God wants all men to be saved ..." You went on to say ( and I'm paraphrasing ) that these people grew a veil over their spiritual eyes because they misunderstood Paul's teaching .

Paul was human and not God . However , his words concerning any teaching are fully inspired = breathed out by God . Are you suggesting that Paul should have developed his doctrines a bit more so some would not misintrepret his words ? I've got news for you -- they perverted his words intentionally . To twist Paul's words with respect to the doctrines of grace is to treat them synergistically .

In your view should Paul have tried harder ? Should he have been more evangelistic to save more folks ? Did he fail to present a more full-orbed view of reprobation ? Should he have attempted to emphasize that all were meant for the Kingdom of Heaven but that their wills trumped the Lord's will in that matter ?

 

[psalms109:31]

What I am saying

His words was also from Himself and not the Lord

1 Corinthians 7:12
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

Paul was a man just like us needing to be humbled by the Lord.

Paul words are misunderstood to the people own destruction,

It is pretty simple, people who believe that God has not giving hope to all men . That God does not want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Not only have they miss understood Paul, they are being lead to thier own destruction.

Paul words are hard for men to understand.

They veil that men wear are made from the words of man, and only by trusting in Jesus can this veil be removed.

God does the world that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

I do see the line of men that God has chosen, but also I see the door that was opened that whosever may enter.

These chosen people should know this.

Romans 11:17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Paul was a man and many people have misunderstood His teaching to thier own destruction.

 

[Rippon]

all References from the NIV

Well , we must be misunderstanding Jude 4,13 and Peter ( 1 Peter 2:7,8 ; 2 Peter 2:3 ) also -- they agreed with Paul . And then the writer of Proverbs 16:4 must be misinterpreted too .

2 Cor. 11:15 ... their end will be what their actions deserve .

1 Thess. 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ .

Paul was writing to believers in this epistle . The Lord indeed appointed some to suffer wrath . In Romans 9:22 it refers to " the objects of wrath -- prepared for destruction ." Are we misunderstanding these clear words of the Apostle ?

In 2 Thess. 2:11 Paul writes : ..."God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie . " The delusion is sent so that they will be condemned .

And , of course we must be mistaking what Jesus said in Luke 10 . Just as an example , He said the following to His Father : ... you have hidden these things from the wise and learned , and revealed them to little children . Yes , Father , for this was your good pleasure . (v.21 ) . In the very next verse He says ... no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those He chooses to reveal him . ( see also Matt. 11:27 and John 5:21 ) .

It seems to say that saving knowledge was granted to some and not to others . Why ? --- because it pleased the Lord .

 

[psalms109:31]

Unbelievers

Unbelievers are appointed to wrath of God, but God wants them to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we are the messenger

 

[pinoybaptist]

I'm not saying we should'nt use certain words. We unlike God are stuck in a measurable world. We measure time and distance,we measure area and volume. God is not measurable.God is not stuck in ANY time dimension. God does'nt need foreknowledge since He has all knowledge all of the time.

.......

No disrespect, but, you're still going to the same line most free willers do.
God is Sovereign enough to allow us our own free space, and all that jazz.

 

[psalms109:31]

jude

5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

 

[J.D.]

People have totally missunderstood those words and even peter warns us that people will missunderstand Paul's to thier own destruction.

Here's what the verse actually says:

II Peter 3:16 (KJV) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Please notice the underlines that I supplied. What does an unlearned person need to do? A: They need to learn something, then they won't be unlearned anymore, will they?

Christians must grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, this could very well be describing what happens when a lost person reads the Bible. Unlearned, unstable, wresting (twisting), and destruction are all fitting descriptors of the reprobate.

 

[psalms109:31]

What we need to do

We need to trust in the Lord and not lean on our understanding.

The only way our eyes will be opened is if Jesus opens them.

God said that He has hidden the truth to wise and learned and revealed it to little children

If we do really trust in the Lord we will know that God does love the world that whosoever believe in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

That God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Until we trust in God and not to depend on men, the truth will never be revealed to us.

We are all unlearned and only Jesus can teach us. We are unstable until we trust in the Lord and not to lean on our own understanding.

I am not lying nor was Paul God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we should be messengers of that.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Pinoybaptist,
Then how would you frame it..Sorry I forgot to get your permission to pose a question or make a statement.:BangHead:
Let's see if this helps: God has foreknowledge.God has sixteen knowledge.God has 32 knowledge. God has 64 knowledge. God has whatever knowledge there is whenever it was,is,or will be.God has all knowledge.