Originally posted by saturneptune:
My wording may not have been the best on the last post. It was late after a long day at work. The point as I see it is that we are to pray without ceasing for whatever the Holy Spirit leads us to pray for. To inject the Calvinist Arminian debate into the subject of prayer (and that includes the ridiculous parodies of prayer on both sides), and come to some type of ridiculous conclusion on either side that there is a time not to pray for someone (subject of this thread) to me is way out of bounds. Does this debate have to infect every aspect of Christian discussion??
As for the tone, as far as I am concerned, it makes no difference to me if 500 people say tone does not matter. It most certainly does. First of all, what purpose does an arrogant and looking down your nose at someone tone accomplish verses a respectful tone? Phrases like "your ignorance is showing again" or others above are not necessary to get the point across.
Calvinism makes the most sense for an eternal and sovereign God. However, it seems to me that the vast majority of posts of this tone come from Calvinists. Why is that? Is this the tone you use to witness to others? Is this the tone you pray to the Lord? (if you choose to pray for that person, I almost forgot). The only time I can recall Jesus angry was at the money changers and Pharisees. That is called righteous anger. Since there is none of that in us, who are we as flawed humans to have an arrogant tone with anyone, especially in spiritual matters?
I appreciate what you are saying... remember though, I did not say that tone does not matter... what I said was that it does not follow that just because someone speaks in a certain tone, be it good or bad, that what they say is thereby automatically either right or wrong. The point still stands that if a person were to condescendingly say that 2+2=4, it does not follow that because they spoke condescendingly, what they said is false.
Secondly, the believer can indeed have a righteous anger. Eph 4:26 csb Be angry and do not sin. Don't let the sun go down on your anger,"
Vincents Words Studies says "Eph 4:26 - Be ye angry and sin not (Greek text omitted) Cited from Psa_4:5, after the Septuagint. Hebrew, stand in awe and sin not. Righteous anger is commanded, not merely permitted."
Gill comments "Eph 4:26 - Be ye angry, and sin not,.... There is anger which is not sinful; for anger is found in God himself, in Jesus Christ, in the holy angels, and in God's people; and a man may be said to be angry and not sin, when his anger arises from a true zeal for God and religion; when it is kindled not against persons, but sins; when a man is displeased with his own sins, and with the sins of others: with vice and immorality of every kind; with idolatry and idolatrous worship, and with all false doctrine; and also when it is carried on to answer good ends, as the good of those with whom we are angry, the glory of God, and the promoting of the interest of Christ: and there is an anger which is sinful; as when it is without a cause; when it exceeds due bounds; when it is not directed to a good end; when it is productive of bad effects, either in words or actions; and when it is soon raised, or long continues"
Jamison Faucett and Brown: "Eph 4:26 - Be ye angry, and sin not--So the Septuagint, Psa_4:4. Should circumstances arise to call for anger on your part, let it be as Christ's "anger" (Mar_3:5), without sin. Our natural feelings are not wrong when directed to their legitimate object, and when not exceeding due bounds. As in the future literal, so in the present spiritual, resurrection, no essential constituent is annihilated, but all that is a perversion of the original design is removed. Thus indignation at dishonor done to God, and wrong to man, is justifiable anger. Passion is sinful (derived from "passio," suffering: implying that amidst seeming energy, a man is really passive, the slave of his anger, instead of ruling it)."
Thirdly, I would just point out that when you look at how Paul and John addressed false doctrine, it is evident that they were very passionate and even angry at the false teachers and their false teachings, as they tried to sneak into the flock and plant heresy. Therefore, as we are to imitate the godly, we may imitate their anger, as long as the boundaries above are met.
blessings,
Ken
