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I Would Like to Opine Regarding Calvinism that...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Oct 16, 2006.

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  1. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    Amen to that! I am with you!
     
    #61 jne1611, Oct 20, 2006
  2. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    Amen to that. My thought exactly. Those given come to Christ!
     
    #62 jne1611, Oct 20, 2006
  3. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    Good Post.:thumbs:
     
    #63 jne1611, Oct 20, 2006
  4. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    Hello skypair,
    Give one Scripture to substantiate the claim that God chooses who He foreknows will choose Him. To my recollection there is not 1 verse, even half of a verse that says God chose the elect because of foreknown choice or faith. The Scripture only identifies the individual as chosen, not what they are, or are not going to do. If God based His choice on just what He saw without His intervention, we would all be in trouble.
    Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
    Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
     
    #64 jne1611, Oct 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2006
  5. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    I like that! Amen! Amen! Amen!
     
    #65 jne1611, Oct 20, 2006
  6. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    Yes. I think the particular Baptist's denounced duty faith, till Andrew Fuller & William Carey took up the preaching of it. I may be wrong, but I believe most of what were called Particular & Strict Baptist's did not believe in gospel offers. I had a preacher of that sort come to our church & get very aggravated at a message I preached from Rom. 1.
     
    #66 jne1611, Oct 20, 2006
  7. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Here is some more information on Hyper-Calvinism from Strange Baptist fire which is an off shoot of the Founders blog.

    Written by Gene M. Bridges
     
    #67 Allan, Oct 21, 2006
  8. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Hmmm, nothing there about infant baptism. How about that. :)

    Good find, Allan. Thanks for that post.
     
    #68 whatever, Oct 21, 2006
  9. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Well it is true that Historic Calvinism did hold to infant baptism but I'm not sure on the date it changed course for some and who anymore hold it if any.

    Side Note: I have found in any of my resouses per-say that state the infant baptism was a sourse of salvation. I'm not sure why it was continued but it may be the reason was it was eventually removed.
     
    #69 Allan, Oct 23, 2006
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Infant baptism (actually sprinkling rather than baptism) is viewed by covenantalists as the NT equivalent of OT circumcision. It was a "sign of hte covenant." It does not have saving significance.

    However, that has nothing to do with soteriological Calvinism. Calvinism, broadly speaking, included those who believed in infant sprinkling, amill, etc. But soteriological Calvinism is usually in view in the CvA discussion.
     
    #70 Pastor Larry, Oct 23, 2006
  11. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    First -- sorry about my rant. Rom 8:29 -- "For whom He did foreknow, them He did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son." OK, what IS it the God foreknows? The number of hairs on your head, right? Did He have to make a decision on how many He would put there or could He just KNOW it? He did foreknow it, right? He didn't "love" every Christian so much that He gave them all lots of hair, did He? He was omniscient and He theefore KNEW how many hairs the elect and non-elect alike would have.

    Same with belief. He didn't, as some claim, love only those He chose. Scripture says He "so loved the world!" What He did, then, was foreknow who would believe and then predestinate them to His purposes.

    Calsinists say that freewillers limit omniscience to prescience without determination. In this instance, that could be the case -- but Calvinists take away God's omniscience by saying that He couldn't know if He didn't predetermine those who would be "elect" which they equate with the saved.

    Another false claim relying on a restrictive definition -- of total depravity meaning total inability. Scripture says we are all sinners. It does NOT say this precludes us from choosing God in the same manner that we choose a menu selection at Abuelo's. It does NOT say any are incapable of "hearing."

    In fact, if you study Rom 3:22 and Gal 3:22, you will see that God gives faith to those who believe. He doesn't give belief, though. Read Rom 4:5. So if, perchance, you heard the preaching of the gospel, you or anyone could be moved by the Spirit that accompanies the word of truth to believe -- and if you believed you would obey and receive Christ.

    Notwithstanding your lovely verses, they are not the whole counsel of God. They are words that seem to substantiate Calvinism but I notice that they do not have the Spirit of what the rest of scripture has when interpretted by Calvinist theology.

    I wonder if on the one hand scripture says "whoseoever believeth on Him should have eternal life" has the same Spirit as "he that doeth the truth cometh to the light." Doesn't the latter imply someone who is already saved? So how can you say that only the "elect" come to the truth if they are not saved yet?

    skypair
     
    #71 skypair, Oct 24, 2006
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    See, this is one place I believe the laity are often confused. If you lay down that baptism = circumcision, then you posit the idea that the chosen of God (Israel) = "elect." And since the "elect" are saved regardless, MANY if not most, laity will assume their salvation through baptism (which I surmise is quite alright with most of the clergy seeing it is quite "prickly" business telling people whom you told were "in covenant with God" by baptism that they are lost :tear: ).

    The chosen of God does equal "elect" but they were chosen and elect FOR A PURPOSE -- NOT to salvation! Do you see what I mean? Practical Calvinism is largely like Catholicism in this way -- if you are a member of the church (baptized and, for RCC, observe the other sacraments), you are assumed to be saved unless you prove by your "works" that you are not. JM Boice for this reason says that the ONLY way we can know we are saved is by "living a holy life." Whatever that means, it sounds the same as Catholicism to me.

    skypair
     
    #72 skypair, Oct 24, 2006
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  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    No you don't. First, there is a theological error since baptism is not equal to circumcision. Second, the nation of Israel was the elect of God as a nation, and some of the nation of Israel were the elect of God in salvation.

    Regardless of what??? The elect must believe to be saved, and must hear the gospel to believe, and must be preached to to hear the gospel, and therefore must have preachers sent to them.

    Many people believe that they are saved through baptism. That is not a Calvinist/Arminian issue. Secondly, if you understand what Presbyterians believe about infant baptism, they have no problem telling people who are baptized that they are lost. You should do a little reading on this.
    No, I don't see what you mean. The Bible says they were chosen to salvation. That was the purpose, with all that salvation entails.

    Then you need to learn some about Catholicism and Calvinism. As far as living a holy life, that is what the Bible teaches. We are assured of our salvation by the lives that we live.
     
    #73 Pastor Larry, Oct 24, 2006
  14. jne1611

    jne1611 Member

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    1st of all. All you gave to my request for Scripture to substantiate your claim, was opinion. As even free - willers know, there is no Scripture that says God foreknew who would believe, but the Scripture says "whom" he foreknew. God foreknew the individual.

    2nd I agree God gives faith. Faith = belief. God gives faith. So to say God gives faith & not belief is a contradiction.
    3rd. John 3:21 contrasts believers with unbelievers. Those who come to the light, come to be saved. The Light is Christ! You have yet to give the whole counsel of God. Why in Chapter one John makes it clear that those who received him, did it not by motivation produced by the will of man, but, they were born of God.
     
    #74 jne1611, Nov 3, 2006
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