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Identity of Babylon in Revelation Made Easy
- Thread starter Logos1
- Start date
Here are a couple among many: Of course the difficulty comes when one spiritualizes parts of the passages which admitedly we all do.
Depending upon that premise what does "Jerusalem" and/or "Zion" mean?
Are they Literal or a metaphor of some kind? Babylon?
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.
13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.
5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever.
6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.
8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.
9 Now why dost thou cry out aloud? is there no king in thee? is thy counsellor perished? for pangs have taken thee as a woman in travail.
10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.
11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion.
12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.
13 Arise and thresh, O daughter of Zion: for I will make thine horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass: and thou shalt beat in pieces many people: and I will consecrate their gain unto the LORD, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth.
In your estimation, have the events in this passage ever literally happened?
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
HankD
have ANY of those scriptures though been fulfilled YET in History?
And aren't the OT Prophets revealing a glorious time for Isreal and their King Messiah?
Those verses tell us God Himself will fight on behalf of the Jewish nation...
If he dd fight on behalf of isreal in AD 70, why the wipe out by Rome?
Are we saying ALL of the OT/NT prophecies made about/for isreal were totally fulfiled at First Coming of Christ?
That God promised them a glorious future, and fulfilled that by rejecting them in AD 70, even though Apostle paul answered" has God forgotten/rejected his people the Jews)? GOD FORBID!"
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ALL the yet-fulfilled promises to Israel were fulfilled in Christ's first coming; however, some of them have been completed while others were initiated by Him and will be completed at His return.
thomas15
Well-Known Member
We must be in an extended "full moon" cycle.
As I have said before, the real debate isn't Preterism vs. A-mill or A-mill vs pre-mill, rather the question to ask and debate is Covenant theology vs. Dispensationalism. But, to be a good sport I will ask a question of the Preterist. No doubt there is a very good answer, plain as day to anyone with an open mind and open Bible, but here goes...
The Holy Bible Bible refers to Jerusalem many times and it is always a small city in Cannan. The Holy Bible also refers to the city of Babylon and it always a different city, located on the Euphrates River.
What then would be the purpose for the Holy Spirit to direct John to use the name of the city Babylon to actually mean the city of Jerusalem when the two cities are 100s of miles apart and really don't have very much in common? This is the basic question but beyond that, if the Preterist is correct, then most if not all of the figures given in the various judgements in Revelation are inaccurate and of course Armageddon comes before Babylon falls so that event must be in the history books, but what history book I think is a good question to ask?
As I have said before, the real debate isn't Preterism vs. A-mill or A-mill vs pre-mill, rather the question to ask and debate is Covenant theology vs. Dispensationalism. But, to be a good sport I will ask a question of the Preterist. No doubt there is a very good answer, plain as day to anyone with an open mind and open Bible, but here goes...
The Holy Bible Bible refers to Jerusalem many times and it is always a small city in Cannan. The Holy Bible also refers to the city of Babylon and it always a different city, located on the Euphrates River.
What then would be the purpose for the Holy Spirit to direct John to use the name of the city Babylon to actually mean the city of Jerusalem when the two cities are 100s of miles apart and really don't have very much in common? This is the basic question but beyond that, if the Preterist is correct, then most if not all of the figures given in the various judgements in Revelation are inaccurate and of course Armageddon comes before Babylon falls so that event must be in the history books, but what history book I think is a good question to ask?
Where does your idea or definition of fornication come from?
The dictionary says;
FORN'ICATE, v.i. [L. fornicor, from fornix, a brothel.]
To commit lewdness, as an unmarried man or woman, or as a married man with an unmarried woman.
Rome past or future is not in a covenant relationship with God so could never commit fornication. Only Jerusalem is in a position to commit fornication.
I believe that Babylon is Vactican city. It sits on seven hills as it is described.
MB
My point is that the view we choose from among the various schemae of eschatology depends upon which terms of the Scripture we feel comfortable in spritualizing and which to leave as literal.
The permutations are many and personally I can't fault anyone trying to make the best of the situation.
To me it seems that there are too many detailed promises left concerning Israel to spiritualize every single one. Too many details would have to be abandoned.
Every schematic has its difficulties and rightfully so:
HankD
The permutations are many and personally I can't fault anyone trying to make the best of the situation.
To me it seems that there are too many detailed promises left concerning Israel to spiritualize every single one. Too many details would have to be abandoned.
Every schematic has its difficulties and rightfully so:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
NKJV Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
HankD
Hello Hank. Sorry for the delay. Hope everything is well with you.
It depends whether the passages are referring to physical Jerusalem/Zion or spiritual Jerusalem/Zion. We have the heavenly or spiritual Zion depicted in the 12th chap of Revelation who is being persecuted by the dragon, and we have the physical Jerusalem in the 17th & 18th chapters who is riding the back of the dragon's beast who is persecuting spiritual Zion. This agrees with Paul's analogy given in Gal 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the freewoman.
23 Howbeit the son by the handmaid is born after the flesh; but the son by the freewoman is born through promise.
24 Which things contain an allegory: for these women are two covenants; one from mount Sinai, bearing children unto bondage, which is Hagar.
25 Now this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to the Jerusalem that now is: for she is in bondage with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now.
30 Howbeit what saith the scripture? Cast out the handmaid and her son: for the son of the handmaid shall not inherit with the son of the freewoman.
31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of a handmaid, but of the freewoman.
“More are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” is from Isa 54, which is a prophecy concerning the incoming of the nations (or 'the enlargement' as I call it) into covenant relationship with God through the Church. “The children of the desolate” being all those born from above among the Gentiles [and Jews] whose mother was “the Jerusalem that is above” [see Ps 87; Ro 2:13-15,29] whose covenant was yet to be revealed. It was physical Israel that “hath the husband” through most of the OT. To the spiritual Israel He says, “ For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee”. The children of the Jerusalem that is above had not a home or a husband until the visible Church came into existence.
When reading the OT prophecies concerning Jerusalem and/or Zion, how does one determine which is being addressed? The message to those of the flesh was curses, doom, and wrath. The message to the children of promise was, “Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.”.
.... It behoveth you to be born from above Jn 3:7 YLT
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All is well here. Hopefully you and yours the same.
That's a decent scriptural answer kyredneck.
I'm glad you emboldened Galatians 4:29 above.
It seems to indicate that Jacob (aka Israel) was born of the Spirit before the advent of the church which is part of my point that "redeemed Israel" although distinct from the church seems to have more on the horizon of God's "thing's to come".
Thanks for the response.
HankD
That's a decent scriptural answer kyredneck.
I'm glad you emboldened Galatians 4:29 above.
It seems to indicate that Jacob (aka Israel) was born of the Spirit before the advent of the church which is part of my point that "redeemed Israel" although distinct from the church seems to have more on the horizon of God's "thing's to come".
Thanks for the response.
HankD
Old Union Brother
New Member
Great post Kyredneck!!!!
Some post are just hard to take serious. Is it really possible that anyone could think a discussion about the way terms such as harlot, adultery, fornicate, etc applied to countries, groups of people, or cities is a literal dictionary defintion instead of symbolism of how God views unfaithfulness, worshiping false god's and rejection of Christ.
I'm using the term the way the bible uses it--for example.
Hosea 4:15 Though you commit adultery, O Israel,
Jeremiah 3:8 gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.
Hosea 9:1 Do not rejoice, O Israel; do not be jubilant like the other nations. For you have been unfaithful to your God; you love the wages of a prostitute at every threshing floor
You of course note that the only group of people accused of commiting fornication, being a harlot etc are the Jews who are in a covenant relationship with God. Other nations in the Old Testament worshiped false God's but they weren't in a covenant relationship with God and weren't accused of being a prostitute, harlot, etc.
When Babylon is referred to as a harlot, a prostitute, and a fornicator it is not plowing new ground. Only the covenant Jews would be capable of commiting adultry.
Their covenant ended in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple just as the Apostles were warning they were in the end of the age-the Old Covenant Age.
If Babylon is a Harlot then we automatically know it is of the Jews who are in a covenant relationship with God and since that covenant ended in 70 AD Babylon could only be a Jewish city that was around in 70 AD--hence we see Babylon could only represent Jerusalem which was destroyed in 70 AD.
What could be simpler.
The Vatican--many cities sit on 7 hills--is that all you got?
The Vatican was never in a covenant relationship with God and since we can't go back to the Old Covenant it can never get into a covenant relationship in the future.
Calling Babylon a harlot points to only one city--the city that represents Old Covenant Jews--Jerusalem in the time of their covenant which ended in 70 AD.
Hi Logos1 and thanks for the presentation of the well thought out points. However:
Jerusalem still stands today and many of the things in Revelation 18 are still in effect there (merchants, precious comodities) of which are said "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all".
No doubt there is partial fulfilment of prophecy over the AD70 sack of Jerusalem, but the devastation was not one of total destruction and does not seem to compare with the global effects portrayed in Revelation 18.
My contention is that "mystery" Babylon still exists today and has existed since day one (Ephesians 6:12) in the form of any human system which denies the Trinity, the incarnation and the vicarious blood atonement of Jesus Christ.
Basically, it is the philosophy of Nimrod (thus the name "Babylon"): An unauthorized religion/philosophy/socio-economic system (aka Secular Humanism) and approach to God based upon human effort, multi-culturalism, human harmony and non-accountability to deity.
It should be no surprise that Hollywood has been given the name "Hollywood Babylon".
Though "Mystery Babylon" may have had its earthly headquarters in Jerusalem at the time of Christ, Revelation 18 portrays the "mother of harlots" in a wider scope than apostate Judaism alone "neither shall they learn war any more" has yet to be fulfilled and will not until the Lord of lords and King of kings makes His bodily appearance.
Micah 4
2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
HankD
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I'm not logos1.....but:
No, it was rebuilt. And I've no doubt that 'it must needs be', but because 'it must needs be' doesn't mean that it's a good thing. 'It must needs be' that Satan be loosed, but that's not a good thing. The question to ask is, is it an aberration? Is this 'Wickedness'?:
5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.
6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is the ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their appearance in all the land
7 (and, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead); and this is a woman sitting in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is Wickedness: and he cast her down into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there came forth two women, and the wind was in their wings; now they had wings like the wings of a stork; and they lifted up the ephah between earth and heaven.
10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11 And he said unto me, To build her a house in the land of Shinar: and when it is prepared, she shall be set there in her own place. Zech 5
Why do you literalize here? In the very first sentence of the book of Revelation it says 'the things which must shortly come to pass' were signified to John. The question to ask is what do merchants and goods signify? Or the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters and craftsman and the voice of a mill and the light of a lamp and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride?
It wasn't a 'sack', it was literally cutting the head off of apostate Judaism. From Acts 2 we can see the extent of the Jew's religion at that time:
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God.
For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. Acts 15:21
Thus it is said of the harlot in Rev 17:
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
And the fact is there was an incredible thriving international economy of the Jewish religion with huge amounts of riches being sent to Jerusalem. Edersheim delves somewhat into this and also writes quite extensively on the influence and connection and close relationship between the Jews in Babylon (who far out numbered those in Palestine, most stayed under Cyrus) and the Jews in Palestine. Josephus refers to the immense wealth of the Jews several times. Here's an excerpt from 'The Parousia' by James Stuart Russell:
“After this follows a solemn and pathetic dirge, if it may be so called, over the fallen city, whose last hour is now come. The kings or rulers of the land, the merchant-traders and the seamen who knew her in the plentitude of her power and glory, now lament over her fall. The royal city, the mart of trade and wealth, is wrapt in flames, and the mariners and merchants who were enriched by her traffic stand afar off, beholding the smoke of her burning, and crying, ‘What city is like unto this great city?’ The description given in this chapter of the wealth and luxury of the mystic Babylon might seem scarcely appropriate to Jerusalem were it not that we have in Josephus ample evidence that there is no exaggeration even in this highly-wrought representation. More than once the Jewish historian speaks of the magnificence and vast wealth of Jerusalem. It is very remarkable that the inventory of the spoils taken from the treasury of the temple contains almost every one of the articles enumerated in this lamentation over the fallen city,---‘Gold, silver, precious stones, purple, scarlet, cinnamon, odours, ointments, and frankincense.”
Titus to the Jews at Jerusalem, 70 AD:
“.... It can therefore be nothing certainly but the kindness of us Romans which hath excited you against us; who, in the first place, have given you this land to possess; and, in the next place, have set over you kings of your own nation; and, in the third place, have preserved the laws of your forefathers to you, and have withal permitted you to live, either by yourselves, or among others, as it should please you: and, what is our chief favor of all we have given you leave to gather up that tribute which is paid to God (27) with such other gifts that are dedicated to him; nor have we called those that carried these donations to account, nor prohibited them; till at length you became richer than we ourselves,....”
I believe there's truth to this view but it involves a certain amount of speculation. There's ample evidence to identify the harlot as she is immediately presented in Revelation.
Have you ever read 'The Two Babylons', by Alexander Hyslop?
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19
Here's two of Mystery Babylon's harlot daughters:
http://www.infolink-islam.de/Books/Torrey/torrey2.htm for full text see:
http://www.truthnet.org/islam/Jewish/
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html
Don't know how to answer that. But there's no way that I would try to literalize it.
No, it was rebuilt. And I've no doubt that 'it must needs be', but because 'it must needs be' doesn't mean that it's a good thing. 'It must needs be' that Satan be loosed, but that's not a good thing. The question to ask is, is it an aberration? Is this 'Wickedness'?:
5 Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.
6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is the ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their appearance in all the land
7 (and, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead); and this is a woman sitting in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is Wickedness: and he cast her down into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there came forth two women, and the wind was in their wings; now they had wings like the wings of a stork; and they lifted up the ephah between earth and heaven.
10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11 And he said unto me, To build her a house in the land of Shinar: and when it is prepared, she shall be set there in her own place. Zech 5
Why do you literalize here? In the very first sentence of the book of Revelation it says 'the things which must shortly come to pass' were signified to John. The question to ask is what do merchants and goods signify? Or the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters and craftsman and the voice of a mill and the light of a lamp and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride?
It wasn't a 'sack', it was literally cutting the head off of apostate Judaism. From Acts 2 we can see the extent of the Jew's religion at that time:
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, in Judaea and Cappadocia, in Pontus and Asia,
10 in Phrygia and Pamphylia, in Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and sojourners from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabians, we hear them speaking in our tongues the mighty works of God.
For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. Acts 15:21
Thus it is said of the harlot in Rev 17:
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
And the fact is there was an incredible thriving international economy of the Jewish religion with huge amounts of riches being sent to Jerusalem. Edersheim delves somewhat into this and also writes quite extensively on the influence and connection and close relationship between the Jews in Babylon (who far out numbered those in Palestine, most stayed under Cyrus) and the Jews in Palestine. Josephus refers to the immense wealth of the Jews several times. Here's an excerpt from 'The Parousia' by James Stuart Russell:
“After this follows a solemn and pathetic dirge, if it may be so called, over the fallen city, whose last hour is now come. The kings or rulers of the land, the merchant-traders and the seamen who knew her in the plentitude of her power and glory, now lament over her fall. The royal city, the mart of trade and wealth, is wrapt in flames, and the mariners and merchants who were enriched by her traffic stand afar off, beholding the smoke of her burning, and crying, ‘What city is like unto this great city?’ The description given in this chapter of the wealth and luxury of the mystic Babylon might seem scarcely appropriate to Jerusalem were it not that we have in Josephus ample evidence that there is no exaggeration even in this highly-wrought representation. More than once the Jewish historian speaks of the magnificence and vast wealth of Jerusalem. It is very remarkable that the inventory of the spoils taken from the treasury of the temple contains almost every one of the articles enumerated in this lamentation over the fallen city,---‘Gold, silver, precious stones, purple, scarlet, cinnamon, odours, ointments, and frankincense.”
Titus to the Jews at Jerusalem, 70 AD:
“.... It can therefore be nothing certainly but the kindness of us Romans which hath excited you against us; who, in the first place, have given you this land to possess; and, in the next place, have set over you kings of your own nation; and, in the third place, have preserved the laws of your forefathers to you, and have withal permitted you to live, either by yourselves, or among others, as it should please you: and, what is our chief favor of all we have given you leave to gather up that tribute which is paid to God (27) with such other gifts that are dedicated to him; nor have we called those that carried these donations to account, nor prohibited them; till at length you became richer than we ourselves,....”
I believe there's truth to this view but it involves a certain amount of speculation. There's ample evidence to identify the harlot as she is immediately presented in Revelation.
Have you ever read 'The Two Babylons', by Alexander Hyslop?
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/19/opinion/oe-stein19
Here's two of Mystery Babylon's harlot daughters:
http://www.infolink-islam.de/Books/Torrey/torrey2.htm for full text see:
http://www.truthnet.org/islam/Jewish/
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v14/v14n1p-4_Weber.html
Don't know how to answer that. But there's no way that I would try to literalize it.
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The short answer kyredneck is that yes, I have read The Two Babylons, not every page but a great deal of it in my younger days. I don't believe the Church of Rome to be the head but a component of this babylonian principality in high places (the spiritual counterpart of the New Jerusalem).
We have a hint of this city in Revelation 2:
Personally, I believe that the spiritual Babylonian headquarters will be rebuilt or re-established here on earth at some point in time. Not that it is necessary but it seems so, especially if it goes by another name. There is indeed a city in Iraq called Babylon.
Time will tell.
I'm going back to read your response in greater depth, looking at the URL's.
HankD
We have a hint of this city in Revelation 2:
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Personally, I believe that the spiritual Babylonian headquarters will be rebuilt or re-established here on earth at some point in time. Not that it is necessary but it seems so, especially if it goes by another name. There is indeed a city in Iraq called Babylon.
Time will tell.
I'm going back to read your response in greater depth, looking at the URL's.
HankD
A more in depth response kyredneck:
So, either preterism is correct or one must make an allowance of a delay which is my view. There are a couple of options: either "shortly" can be taken as "quickly" when the final hour does begin or "shortly" is subjective to the divine author.
Matthew 24
Yes, this is a good point and no doubt bewildered the early church fathers as time went by, the apostles departed planet earth and no return of Christ in the manner prescribed in Acts 1:11 or other globally apocalyptic scenarios.
So, either preterism is correct or one must make an allowance of a delay which is my view. There are a couple of options: either "shortly" can be taken as "quickly" when the final hour does begin or "shortly" is subjective to the divine author.
Commerce in general, affluence in particular along with an amoral, care-less and cavalier attitude towards life.
Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
It did indeed survive as something called Talmudic Judaism which is practiced to this very day.
Your references to Hollywood Babylon - No comment except to say
again the merchandise of sin of mystery Babylon the mother of harlots perpetrated by those of the antichrist philosophy.
again the merchandise of sin of mystery Babylon the mother of harlots perpetrated by those of the antichrist philosophy.
HankD
Hello Hank,
Instead of getting bogged down in specific prophecies at the moment let me just make this post about the big picture. You can find fulfillment of many prophecies by reading history of the era and events around 70 AD.
But to the point.
When you say there are prophecies concerning Israel that haven't been fulfilled think about the ramifications of what you are saying.
There would be no point in specific prophecies about Israel after they are no longer in their covenant with the Lord. Paul tells us they are not his special people any more. That the gentiles stand equal with the Jews before God. Ephesians 3:6.
If they are still in their covenant then we need to brush up on the Mosiac law since Jesus wasn't the real messiah and we are still waiting on him.
Since they are not in their covenant any more that means the latest a prophecy concerning Israel could have been fulfilled was at the end of the Old Covenant and that was 70 AD.
Have a nice Easter.
Instead of getting bogged down in specific prophecies at the moment let me just make this post about the big picture. You can find fulfillment of many prophecies by reading history of the era and events around 70 AD.
But to the point.
When you say there are prophecies concerning Israel that haven't been fulfilled think about the ramifications of what you are saying.
There would be no point in specific prophecies about Israel after they are no longer in their covenant with the Lord. Paul tells us they are not his special people any more. That the gentiles stand equal with the Jews before God. Ephesians 3:6.
If they are still in their covenant then we need to brush up on the Mosiac law since Jesus wasn't the real messiah and we are still waiting on him.
Since they are not in their covenant any more that means the latest a prophecy concerning Israel could have been fulfilled was at the end of the Old Covenant and that was 70 AD.
Have a nice Easter.
Hi Logos1,
Yes, I understand your point and it is a worthy one in my estimation.
In reference to Israel and their present condition, Paul does say in Romans 11:
Romans 11
23 And they also, if they (Israel) abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
The important component of this passage is the end of vs 25.
Also in another form:
Luke 21
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
From these passages I surmise that the "times of the Gentiles" has not yet been concluded in that Jerusalem and the Temple Site in Jerusalem are still being "trodden down" by the Gentiles after which time it is my expectation that they (believing Israel) will be restored.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
I realize that this reasoning may be viewed as flawed by many Christians.
Personally, I don't feel a sense of combativeness concerning this and welcome decent discussion, debate and sharing of views.
Nor do I have a sense of being bogged down but am willing to share my views down to the details to the best of my ability.
Neither do I have a sense of superiority knowing that I may very well be wrong as proven by the myriad schema to which eschatology lends itself also realizing that there are difficulties in my schema as in every other.
Thanks again. And yes, He has risen.
HankD
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Hank,
You have a talent for getting along with others. We could all learn from you in that regard.
In answer to your statement, I would say that if believing Israel were going to be restored they would have to be put back into their covenant and there is no provision to set aside the work of Christ and go back to the Old Covenant. Christ says he fulfilled the law and prophets and Paul has told us how much better the new covenant is so why would God go back to an inferior system.
The fulness of the gentiles came in when they destroyed Jerusalem, the temple, and the old covenant then came to an end and now we are in a better system forever more.
Paul further tells us that the Jewish forefathers got their salvation by their faith, but had to wait for Christ to be reconciled back to God.
Covenant Israel served its purpose and then just as God explained he would he moved on to a better system under the New Covenant and the work of Christ paying for our sins.
You have a talent for getting along with others. We could all learn from you in that regard.
In answer to your statement, I would say that if believing Israel were going to be restored they would have to be put back into their covenant and there is no provision to set aside the work of Christ and go back to the Old Covenant. Christ says he fulfilled the law and prophets and Paul has told us how much better the new covenant is so why would God go back to an inferior system.
The fulness of the gentiles came in when they destroyed Jerusalem, the temple, and the old covenant then came to an end and now we are in a better system forever more.
Paul further tells us that the Jewish forefathers got their salvation by their faith, but had to wait for Christ to be reconciled back to God.
Covenant Israel served its purpose and then just as God explained he would he moved on to a better system under the New Covenant and the work of Christ paying for our sins.