Hope of Glory
New Member
Right on, Tiny Tim!
No one here has said that it's OK to commit suicide, BTW.
No one here has said that it's OK to commit suicide, BTW.
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If a Christian commits suicide...
- Thread starter fromtheright
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
Brice, I have read each post. People are saying even though it is sin, if a christian commits suicide they will still go to heaven.
By telling people even though it is a sin, they can go to heaven if they commit suicide, they are in all effect giving that person a license to sin.
By telling people even though it is a sin, they can go to heaven if they commit suicide, they are in all effect giving that person a license to sin.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I am reminded of the scripture where Jesus said, 'Satan cometh but to steal, kill and destroy; I am come that ye might have life and have it more abundantly'
Satan wants people to kill themselves. Satan wants people to believe his lies that it is ok to kill themselves. Satan has been questioning God's Word ever since he deceived Eve by saying, 'Yea, and hath God said...?' Satan is still doing the same today. 'Yea, and hath God said that murderers will have their place in the lake of fire...? Ye shall not surely perish, for you have made a profession of faith in your God'
But God said,
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Satan wants people to kill themselves. Satan wants people to believe his lies that it is ok to kill themselves. Satan has been questioning God's Word ever since he deceived Eve by saying, 'Yea, and hath God said...?' Satan is still doing the same today. 'Yea, and hath God said that murderers will have their place in the lake of fire...? Ye shall not surely perish, for you have made a profession of faith in your God'
But God said,
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I am with Scarlett O on this one. If a person is a true belever in Christ all sins have been forgiven past, and future. All sins means just that, ALL SINS. Otherwise I need a list of the ones that are not fogiven.
Nobody is saying it is ok, or not a sin. But thinking dirty thoughts is also a sin. Are you saying one sin is worse then the other. The wages of both sins are the same. Liers have there place in the fire along with murderers. Are you saying that if a truly saved person tells a lie and then dies, he looses his salvation.
My first thought was that a person who is truly trusting Christ would not kill themselvs. But earler posts bring up good points. Like mental illness and throwing yourself on a granade. And even people who truly beleve have slips and lapses.
What if a true believer looses his whole family in a terrable accident he is the cause of. He has a slip and kills himself. Will he burn in hell. Are the promises the Lord makes in the Bible now void.
Nobody is saying it is ok, or not a sin. But thinking dirty thoughts is also a sin. Are you saying one sin is worse then the other. The wages of both sins are the same. Liers have there place in the fire along with murderers. Are you saying that if a truly saved person tells a lie and then dies, he looses his salvation.
My first thought was that a person who is truly trusting Christ would not kill themselvs. But earler posts bring up good points. Like mental illness and throwing yourself on a granade. And even people who truly beleve have slips and lapses.
What if a true believer looses his whole family in a terrable accident he is the cause of. He has a slip and kills himself. Will he burn in hell. Are the promises the Lord makes in the Bible now void.
Bro. Ruben
New Member
The Lord said “Thou shall not kill (murder)”; and that includes one’s self.
Only the Lord gave us our lives, and only Him should take it away on time appointed.
The Bible is silent on cases of those who are terminally ill and in great pain; maybe one can easily say “Oh, it’s better for my loved one to pass away than seeing him in much suffering.” But as a rule of thumb -- if there is no issue do not make an issue. If the Bible is silent, never place the decision in your own way of reasoning.
Therefore, since the Bible has neither direct instruction nor guideline to those who are in great pain, let the command of God be applied upon, and that is “You should not kill”.
Suicide is one way of escaping the realities of life; as much as we heard people who normally committing it were in deep stress, in many trials, and depressed, there are victims which were well-off and famous, too.
I can say that suicide is selfishness. See the effects such act would leave to his/her loved ones. Like a mom who hangs herself or a dad who jumps off the bridge, can’t they realize their children’s welfare and those depending on them? This might set a pattern and leave a mark to the kids saying “Well, I will also do what my dad did, now I understand why he committed suicide years back”. And that’s terrible.
Only the Lord gave us our lives, and only Him should take it away on time appointed.
The Bible is silent on cases of those who are terminally ill and in great pain; maybe one can easily say “Oh, it’s better for my loved one to pass away than seeing him in much suffering.” But as a rule of thumb -- if there is no issue do not make an issue. If the Bible is silent, never place the decision in your own way of reasoning.
Therefore, since the Bible has neither direct instruction nor guideline to those who are in great pain, let the command of God be applied upon, and that is “You should not kill”.
Suicide is one way of escaping the realities of life; as much as we heard people who normally committing it were in deep stress, in many trials, and depressed, there are victims which were well-off and famous, too.
I can say that suicide is selfishness. See the effects such act would leave to his/her loved ones. Like a mom who hangs herself or a dad who jumps off the bridge, can’t they realize their children’s welfare and those depending on them? This might set a pattern and leave a mark to the kids saying “Well, I will also do what my dad did, now I understand why he committed suicide years back”. And that’s terrible.
Bro. Ruben
New Member
Let me dissect your statement bit by bit.
"A saved person" – the Bible is clear, those who are saved have Jesus Christ in their lives. Having Jesus in one’s life is having hope.
“… sinfully murders himself (suicide)” – I don’t believe a real Christian who has hope would commit suicide at any given instance or circumstance. Judas, one of the apostles, was not saved from the start.
Let us say a real Christian did commit murder (suicide). The bible is very clear; it says no “murderer” would enter the kingdom of heaven. The verse never says “a saved murderer would never enter heaven” nor “a murderer would never enter heaven except he is a saved murderer”. No, nothing goes like that. Clearly, the Bible states “no murderer would go to heaven." Period!
“… will he lose his salvation” – I don’t believe a real Christian loses his salvation.
Now, show me a single verse saying that “once saved, always saved.” Nothing, isn’t it? But many Christians (including myself) believe in that doctrine. This doctrine is being promoted by theologians and other people who are extremely excellent in defining doctrines of the Bible. Yet I believe them as they show me verses for such claim in spite not directly telling me that “once saved always saved”.
Where am I arriving at?
God said “no murderer goes to heaven”; while men say “once saved always saved.”
Whose word would you trust more now? Your call.
God bless.
[ January 05, 2006, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Ruben ]
"A saved person" – the Bible is clear, those who are saved have Jesus Christ in their lives. Having Jesus in one’s life is having hope.
“… sinfully murders himself (suicide)” – I don’t believe a real Christian who has hope would commit suicide at any given instance or circumstance. Judas, one of the apostles, was not saved from the start.
Let us say a real Christian did commit murder (suicide). The bible is very clear; it says no “murderer” would enter the kingdom of heaven. The verse never says “a saved murderer would never enter heaven” nor “a murderer would never enter heaven except he is a saved murderer”. No, nothing goes like that. Clearly, the Bible states “no murderer would go to heaven." Period!
“… will he lose his salvation” – I don’t believe a real Christian loses his salvation.
Now, show me a single verse saying that “once saved, always saved.” Nothing, isn’t it? But many Christians (including myself) believe in that doctrine. This doctrine is being promoted by theologians and other people who are extremely excellent in defining doctrines of the Bible. Yet I believe them as they show me verses for such claim in spite not directly telling me that “once saved always saved”.
Where am I arriving at?
God said “no murderer goes to heaven”; while men say “once saved always saved.”
Whose word would you trust more now? Your call.
God bless.
[ January 05, 2006, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Ruben ]
Alright, if you do decide to kill yourself, don't point a gun to your head pull the trigger, but jump out of a tall building; that way you can repent and ask forgiveness on the way down.
And how about those in the World Trade Towers who were about to be roasted or smothered, and they jumped to their deaths? Will any of them be in the Kingdom, or does it depend on whether the floor they jumped from was high enough to allow them time to utter the phrase "Forgive me for this, Lord!"?
Bro. Ruben
New Member
Brother James
New Member
Did not Sampson kill himself when he killed the Phillistines?
This was my first reaction, but I dont think it is correct. One good example is above by Alcott. What about those who choose to murder themselfs in the trade centers instead of burn up. Are they all in hell.
The Bible teaches the doctrine of OSAS even thought it does not use those words. I dont understand your post. Do you agree that OSAS or not. You seem to believe in OSAS then argue against it, calling it the teaching of man.
The passage being used not only deals with murderers it also deals with liers. Would you put lieing in the place of murder in your post.
For instance would you say
A real Christian would never lie. And a person who lies will not enter heaven. The Bible also says no liers go to Heavan Period. It says nothing about saved liers.
Interesting. I believe he did.
If killing your self is the sin then it is always a sin. You justify it in some instances and for some reasons but not others. What you are saying is killing yourself is a sin, unless you have a good reason.
They did not jump to prolong there lifes. They jumped because they did not want to die painfully by fire. The same reason as somebody who chooses to kill them self by shooting themself instead of by cancer.
By the way I must stress I do not condone suicide for any reason. I beleave it to be a sin. But like you (i think) I do not believe a believer can loose salvation.
In His Grace
New Member
In His Grace
New Member
Not a license to sin at all.
Yes, God is against, murder, stealing, all sin. But some still will after they are saved, and God will discipline them for it, he will not disown them for it.
Yes, God is against, murder, stealing, all sin. But some still will after they are saved, and God will discipline them for it, he will not disown them for it.
I don't believe in a license to sin either.
One of the characteristics of the Holy Spirit is that He is a Convicter.
He convicts God's children of sin in their lives. Why would He do that if we didn't indeed HAVE sin in our lives a Christians.
Yes, we are new creatures in Christ, but we still live in the literal flesh and we live in a world where satan is the prince.
Christians are still bombarded by sins of other people, tempted with personal sin, successfully avoiding sin, and unfortunately, sometimes unsuccessfully succombing to sin.
I am saved. I have turned over my heart and life to Jesus Christ.
Yet, I still sin. The apostle Paul even said that he was the chief of sinners and this was after he was saved. He said that he found himself doing things that he did not, as a Christian, want to do and that he found himself NOT doing the things that, as a Christian, he wanted to do.
I am saved to the uttermost, but I still disappoint God sometimes.
Yet, He loves me and not only sent His Son to save me, but His Spirit to convict me of sin.
Here's the logical arrangement of this thread in the minds of some:
1. Murderers do not enter the kingdom (Scripturally proven)
2. Suicide is Murder.
3. Therefore, those who commit suicide will not enter the kingdom.
The problem is with the second premise. No one has conclusively demonstrated that suicide is murder.
1. Murderers do not enter the kingdom (Scripturally proven)
2. Suicide is Murder.
3. Therefore, those who commit suicide will not enter the kingdom.
The problem is with the second premise. No one has conclusively demonstrated that suicide is murder.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Can a Christian commit suicide, when suicide is the act of murder? In suicide one exalts themselves to the position of God, who has the power to give and to take life. It is the act of deliberately forsaking God's command, "thou shalt not murder." There is really no plausible way of getting around the fact that suicide is willful killing, and God declares murderers shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone (Revelation 21:8), which is the second death. But of course, this is the part that no one wants to hear about.