Hope of Glory
New Member
Parse the verse; diagram the verse.
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If a Christian commits suicide...
- Thread starter fromtheright
- Start date
So then, salvation is based on works, not on on faith. alone?
Sorry, the argument that actions affect salvation don't hold scriptural water. If salvation is based on faith in Christ alone, then it is based on faith in Christ alone.
Caveat: Just so we're clear, we're not talking about suicide from something such as bipolar disorder or similar illness. Sadly, persons with bipolar disorder stand a 20% chance of taking their own lives. A good friend of mine who was bipolar, and a devout christian, took his own life after a 30 year battle with this disorder.
Sorry, the argument that actions affect salvation don't hold scriptural water. If salvation is based on faith in Christ alone, then it is based on faith in Christ alone.
Caveat: Just so we're clear, we're not talking about suicide from something such as bipolar disorder or similar illness. Sadly, persons with bipolar disorder stand a 20% chance of taking their own lives. A good friend of mine who was bipolar, and a devout christian, took his own life after a 30 year battle with this disorder.
In His Grace
New Member
What I see here is a problem in understanding Eternal Secuity, once saved always saved.
Rev.21:8 can apply to all murders,
so you are saying, as an example, The Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, who killed all those people in New York back in the 70's, who has now accepted the Lord as his Savior is going to hell because he is a murderer?
Wouldn't you say it's those who have not repented of murder or sin and not accepted Christ as their Savior will go to hell?
Your logic makes it sound like that once we have accepted Christ as Savior, we never sin again or we are now perfect, that will not hold up to scripture.
Christ died for all our sins, past, present, and future!
Rev.21:8 can apply to all murders,
so you are saying, as an example, The Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, who killed all those people in New York back in the 70's, who has now accepted the Lord as his Savior is going to hell because he is a murderer?
Wouldn't you say it's those who have not repented of murder or sin and not accepted Christ as their Savior will go to hell?
Your logic makes it sound like that once we have accepted Christ as Savior, we never sin again or we are now perfect, that will not hold up to scripture.
Christ died for all our sins, past, present, and future!
Yes he did...as a matter of fact only with the help of the Lord who gave him his strength back for the sole purpose of killing himself along with the philistines. You can even say, then, that God assisted in his suicide.
BTW...where is it stated that suicide is "murder"? There is different degrees of "killing", but they are not all murder. Self defense and war are examples where killing others is not classified as murder. I believe suicide falls into the same boat. Jesus gave up His own life...is that classified as suicide?
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
The Bible does not speak out against alcohol in general. Wine was an acceptable drink even to Jesus.
Paul does say in Romans that if anything, including drinking alcohol or eating meat, will lead your brother astray you should refrain from doing it.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Then you believe that:
Salvation is a license to sin.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Of course, the Bible includes more than just murder in the category of those who will not see Heaven.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 21:7 says it all. To inherit eternal life we must overcome by persevering until the end. No "carnal christians" will see the heavenly city.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Then you believe that:
Salvation is a license to sin. </font>[/QUOTE]A license to sin would mean there is no accountability. Just because you cannot lose your salvation, does not mean there is no accountability. At the Judgment Seat, we will receive for what we have done in the flesh, whether it is good or bad.
Murderers will not enter the Kingdom of the Heavens.
Of course, the Bible includes more than just murder in the category of those who will not see Heaven.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 21:7 says it all. To inherit eternal life we must overcome by persevering until the end. No "carnal christians" will see the heavenly city. </font>[/QUOTE]To believe that we keep ourselves saved means that you are not trusting Christ for your salvation completly. That is what keeps one out of Heaven.
No self-righteous person will see Heaven.
Only those who knows that trusts Christ completly.
BTW, the originals manuscripts didn't teach what you said it taught in Rev.
That is the problem with incorporating bad texts (RCC Vulgate) into the KJV the way Erasmaus did.
UnchartedSpirit
New Member
What about Ted Bundy?
No, I don't believe that salvation is a license to sin. When a Christian sins, he affects his moral character, his witness, and his righteousness. But he does not affect his salvation.
You have sinned, and so have I. Are you telling me that neither you nor I are heavenbound because of our sins?
If Ted Bundy, Ted Kennedy, Ted Nugent, Teddy Roosevelt, or my teddy bear accepts the Lord as Savior and accepts the gift of salvation, then that person is heavenbound.
I’m sorry, but I’m not seeing how this concept is so hard to grasp. If one is saved he/she is forgiven. The bible says that murderers will not enter the kingdom, well in the application of this verse as I’ve seen in this thread; we would have David, Paul and Moses all in Hell together. Seeing that this is not reality then one could only assume that once our sins are forgiven, we are no longer considered a murderer by God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If the name of this Forum did not include the word Baptist and was not restricted to Baptists I would not believe it was Baptist considering some of the trash posted above. Thankfully a very excellent post by Scarlett O on page 1 has pointed out that when a person is saved by the Sovereign Grace of God then all sins, past, present, and future are forgiven. Also thankfully several have agreed with her so this Forum is not completely misnamed.
The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. [Freewill Baptists believe that a true believer can loose their salvation.] As far as I am aware only the Baptists and Presbyterians among all denominations hold to a strict doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the Believer’. I am not sure which term most accurately expresses the doctrine. It is certain that Saints will not be able to persevere without the active support of God. The statement from the 1677 Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, page 272] expresses both thoughts as shown in the following excerpt:
“Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).”
Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved and has effectually called and sanctified by His spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace but they will certainly persevere in that state until the end and be eternally saved.
This is because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [He will never change His mind.] and therefore He continues to beget [create] and nourish them in faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit which lead to immortality.
Scripture which show that true believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God are as follows:
John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The above words of Jesus Christ tell us that those who are saved have everlasting life.
John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.
The above words of Jesus Christ tell us that no one can take His sheep, those who are saved, out of His hand or His Father's hand.
Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The above quotation from Romans shows that in the mind of God those whom He has saved are already glorified.
The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. [Freewill Baptists believe that a true believer can loose their salvation.] As far as I am aware only the Baptists and Presbyterians among all denominations hold to a strict doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the Believer’. I am not sure which term most accurately expresses the doctrine. It is certain that Saints will not be able to persevere without the active support of God. The statement from the 1677 Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, page 272] expresses both thoughts as shown in the following excerpt:
“Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).”
Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved and has effectually called and sanctified by His spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace but they will certainly persevere in that state until the end and be eternally saved.
This is because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [He will never change His mind.] and therefore He continues to beget [create] and nourish them in faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit which lead to immortality.
Scripture which show that true believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God are as follows:
John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The above words of Jesus Christ tell us that those who are saved have everlasting life.
John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.
The above words of Jesus Christ tell us that no one can take His sheep, those who are saved, out of His hand or His Father's hand.
Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
The above quotation from Romans shows that in the mind of God those whom He has saved are already glorified.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Like it or not, that concept is an inevitable consequence of this "once saved, always saved" doctrine; which is why, although I am inclined to believe it, I do consider it questionable. </font>[/QUOTE]There seems to be some misunderstanding of what occurs when God saves an individual.
2 Corinthians 5:17 [NKJV] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Galatians 6:15[NKJV] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:1-2
We are justified by one Man's righoutous act (Jesus) not by our own acts.
The retorical question is asked
Shall we continue to sin? (read: do we have a licence to sin?)
The answer CERTAINLY NOT
Our salvation depends on Jesus righoutous act alone not our ability to do or not to do something. And as you see we still are not given a licence to sin. We attempt to do right, to not sin, to do good works, NOT to be saved Not to stay saved. But because we ARE ALREADY SAVED.
I thank the Lord my salvation does not rest on my ability to abstain from sin. If it did we would all be lost. For all have sinned, and the wages of all sin is death.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:1-2
We are justified by one Man's righoutous act (Jesus) not by our own acts.
The retorical question is asked
Shall we continue to sin? (read: do we have a licence to sin?)
The answer CERTAINLY NOT
Our salvation depends on Jesus righoutous act alone not our ability to do or not to do something. And as you see we still are not given a licence to sin. We attempt to do right, to not sin, to do good works, NOT to be saved Not to stay saved. But because we ARE ALREADY SAVED.
I thank the Lord my salvation does not rest on my ability to abstain from sin. If it did we would all be lost. For all have sinned, and the wages of all sin is death.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Of course, the Bible includes more than just murder in the category of those who will not see Heaven.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 21:7 says it all. To inherit eternal life we must overcome by persevering until the end. No "carnal christians" will see the heavenly city. </font>[/QUOTE]To believe that we keep ourselves saved means that you are not trusting Christ for your salvation completly. That is what keeps one out of Heaven.
No self-righteous person will see Heaven.
Only those who knows that trusts Christ completly.
BTW, the originals manuscripts didn't teach what you said it taught in Rev.
That is the problem with incorporating bad texts (RCC Vulgate) into the KJV the way Erasmaus did. </font>[/QUOTE]What original texts are you talking about? I'm not aware that any exist. I am aware that the source documents for some of the newer versions of the Bible are older (and therefore probably more reliable) than the Textus Receptus which the KJV itself is based on.
BTW, did Jesus ever invite someone to be saved by merely believing on him? Give me just one example.
The answer is no. He asked them to do something to indicate their belief. Come and follow me. Pick up your cross and follow me. Sell all that you have and follow me. Pick up your bed and walk.
The Christian faith as taught by our Lord himself is dependent upon our willingness to follow Him in an ongoing sense. Christians are not made by an idle act of belief. Even the Devil believes that Christ exists and I don't believe he's going to wind up in Heaven.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Good post DeeJay!
standingfirminChrist
New Member
He also had one other requirement... Go, and sin no more!