Hope of Glory
New Member
If that's a requirement for being saved, then we're all in a bunch of trouble! We're all sinners.
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If a Christian commits suicide...
- Thread starter fromtheright
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
ah, but Hope, Christ did command it to many
What did the theif on the cross do?
I guess all the scripture about believe and be saved are inaccuarate or incompleate.
He that believeth on him is not condemned : but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11:26
Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”
John 11:40
I could spend the entire night filling this post with pages of promises from scripture saying that if you believe in the the Lord Jesus Christ you will be saved.
Hope of Glory
New Member
So, just what makes you think that the command to go and sin no more was for salvation? If you can lose your salvation by your works, then your salvation is by works.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I do not believe that salvation is by works. I do believe, however, that many who think they are saved will find they were not serving the Lord at all. Many who are so liberal in their views to think they can continue in sin after making a profession of faith, for instance. If one thinks they can continue in sin because their sin is forgiven (past present and future), that one does not truly know the Savior who said, 'Go, and sin no more'.
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Then you believe that:
Salvation is a license to sin. </font>[/QUOTE]A license to sin would mean there is no accountability. Just because you cannot lose your salvation, does not mean there is no accountability. At the Judgment Seat, we will receive for what we have done in the flesh, whether it is good or bad.
Murderers will not enter the Kingdom of the Heavens. </font>[/QUOTE]You're correct in saying that becoming a Christian is not a license to sin but what we lose in deciding to reject a new life in Christ and return to a life controlled by sin is eternity in Hell. Rev. 21:8 says that not even liars will enter the kingdom. Unrepented sin which controls our life will cause us to Fall from Grace.
Hope of Glory
New Member
"Believe on the Lord Jesus and never sin again, and you will be saved." Hmmm... I haven't seen that one in the Bible.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I believe when Jesus said, Go, and sin no more, He meant it. I believe He meant 'Do not return to the sin I have called you out of'.
1 Peter 2:9 tells us He has 'called us out of darkness and into His marvellous light.
Is 'sinning no more' a requirement for salvation? I can imagine if that were true, then every man, woman, and child on this earth today would be in trouble for sure.
1 John 2 tells us if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jeus Christ the righteous.
But, if we truly do not desire to get rid of sin in our lives when first we call on Him, if we are just calling on Him to help us out of a situation, then, He will not hear our call for salvation.
The Psalmist wrote, If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me. God knows our heart. He knows when we are truly meaning we are sorry for our sins and when we truly are repentent. Sorry and repentence are two different things. One can be sorry they stole something because of getting caught. But that does not mean one is truly repentent and will not give in to stealing again.
This is why Jeus said in Matthew 7, 'Not everyone who saith to me, Lord, lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.'
Many think just repeating a sinners prayer, giving to the church, joining a church is all one needs. God's Word says otherwise. We must be clothed in Christ's righteousness. If one sins and does not feel the chastening hand of God in one's life, then that one probably is not saved. For we know God chastens whom He loves.
1 Peter 2:9 tells us He has 'called us out of darkness and into His marvellous light.
Is 'sinning no more' a requirement for salvation? I can imagine if that were true, then every man, woman, and child on this earth today would be in trouble for sure.
1 John 2 tells us if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, even Jeus Christ the righteous.
But, if we truly do not desire to get rid of sin in our lives when first we call on Him, if we are just calling on Him to help us out of a situation, then, He will not hear our call for salvation.
The Psalmist wrote, If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me. God knows our heart. He knows when we are truly meaning we are sorry for our sins and when we truly are repentent. Sorry and repentence are two different things. One can be sorry they stole something because of getting caught. But that does not mean one is truly repentent and will not give in to stealing again.
This is why Jeus said in Matthew 7, 'Not everyone who saith to me, Lord, lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.'
Many think just repeating a sinners prayer, giving to the church, joining a church is all one needs. God's Word says otherwise. We must be clothed in Christ's righteousness. If one sins and does not feel the chastening hand of God in one's life, then that one probably is not saved. For we know God chastens whom He loves.
Standing
I do not disagree with your above post. A person who is saved will be changed by the Holy Spirit. Their lives will show a difference. However they will still sin and they will come under conviction of the Holy Spirit for it.
I also agree that those who say the quick prayer with out a true conversion and continue on their sinfull life were never saved. A truly saved person will grow into a new creature.
That said, it is not a person who changes himself into a new creature. You can not make your born again and become saved. You become saved by the Lord then he changes you into a new creature.
I do not disagree with your above post. A person who is saved will be changed by the Holy Spirit. Their lives will show a difference. However they will still sin and they will come under conviction of the Holy Spirit for it.
I also agree that those who say the quick prayer with out a true conversion and continue on their sinfull life were never saved. A truly saved person will grow into a new creature.
That said, it is not a person who changes himself into a new creature. You can not make your born again and become saved. You become saved by the Lord then he changes you into a new creature.
Now getting back to the OP.
Lets say you have a person who trusts the Lord Jesus for his salvation he reads John 3:18 and trusts the Lord to keep his promise and save him. This person shows true signs of faith. He starts to drop his old sins, he begins to work at soup kitchens and do several good things to glorifiy the Lord.
Fastforward 10 years he is in an accident with his family. He looses his wife and 3 kids. He becomes depresed longing to be with his family. In a moment of bad judgement he takes a gun and commits suicide.
Question
1. Was this person never saved because he had a moment of sin, that cost him his life.
2. Did this saved person loose his salvation because of this sin.
3. This could never happen, a person like this could never take their own life.
It has to be one, two or three please choose.
Lets say you have a person who trusts the Lord Jesus for his salvation he reads John 3:18 and trusts the Lord to keep his promise and save him. This person shows true signs of faith. He starts to drop his old sins, he begins to work at soup kitchens and do several good things to glorifiy the Lord.
Fastforward 10 years he is in an accident with his family. He looses his wife and 3 kids. He becomes depresed longing to be with his family. In a moment of bad judgement he takes a gun and commits suicide.
Question
1. Was this person never saved because he had a moment of sin, that cost him his life.
2. Did this saved person loose his salvation because of this sin.
3. This could never happen, a person like this could never take their own life.
It has to be one, two or three please choose.
Don't know about the rest of you, but I'm with David (OT) and Paul (NT) who said
Just as David also declares:
"Blessed is the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"
"Blessed are those whose lawless acts are forgiven"
"Blessed are those whose sins are covered.
"Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never ever count against him!"
All Christ's righteousness is credited to my account.
All Bob's sins are forgiven, covered and can NEVER be counted against him!
Wonder about folks who wallow in guilt when these verses (Rom 4:6-8, quoting Psalm 32) are so abundantly clear?
Just as David also declares:
"Blessed is the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works"
"Blessed are those whose lawless acts are forgiven"
"Blessed are those whose sins are covered.
"Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never ever count against him!"
All Christ's righteousness is credited to my account.
All Bob's sins are forgiven, covered and can NEVER be counted against him!
Wonder about folks who wallow in guilt when these verses (Rom 4:6-8, quoting Psalm 32) are so abundantly clear?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Dr Bob,
I fully understand the verses you quoted, and yes, one who is saved cannot lose his or her salvation.
The question at hand, is it possible that one who commits suicide never was saved in the first place, taking into account Matthew 7:21 - 23?
Could that one be one who thought he was the Lord's and just had as others have stated, a relapse into sin?
And what of the Revelation 21:8 in light of this debate? Any thoughts?
I fully understand the verses you quoted, and yes, one who is saved cannot lose his or her salvation.
The question at hand, is it possible that one who commits suicide never was saved in the first place, taking into account Matthew 7:21 - 23?
Could that one be one who thought he was the Lord's and just had as others have stated, a relapse into sin?
And what of the Revelation 21:8 in light of this debate? Any thoughts?
Of course, the Bible includes more than just murder in the category of those who will not see Heaven.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 21:7 says it all. To inherit eternal life we must overcome by persevering until the end. No "carnal christians" will see the heavenly city. </font>[/QUOTE]To believe that we keep ourselves saved means that you are not trusting Christ for your salvation completly. That is what keeps one out of Heaven.
No self-righteous person will see Heaven.
Only those who knows that trusts Christ completly.
BTW, the originals manuscripts didn't teach what you said it taught in Rev.
That is the problem with incorporating bad texts (RCC Vulgate) into the KJV the way Erasmaus did. </font>[/QUOTE]What original texts are you talking about? I'm not aware that any exist. I am aware that the source documents for some of the newer versions of the Bible are older (and therefore probably more reliable) than the Textus Receptus which the KJV itself is based on.
BTW, did Jesus ever invite someone to be saved by merely believing on him? Give me just one example.
The answer is no. He asked them to do something to indicate their belief. Come and follow me. Pick up your cross and follow me. Sell all that you have and follow me. Pick up your bed and walk.
The Christian faith as taught by our Lord himself is dependent upon our willingness to follow Him in an ongoing sense. Christians are not made by an idle act of belief. Even the Devil believes that Christ exists and I don't believe he's going to wind up in Heaven. </font>[/QUOTE]You know good and well what he means about original texts. Revelation was pieced together using somewhere between six and thirteen different pieces of manuscripts, all of which were different.
Finally, that is interesting, you are adding works to salvation. So, what is the "work" you had to do to get your gift of grace from Jesus?
Someone asked about this passage:
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I have some questions myself:
Fearful: These folks are not going to heaven? Fear of what and/or whom?
Abominable: Why are they "abominable"?
Liars: How many lies must one tell before that one is considered by God to be a liar?
One must define each of these terms.
murderers Personally, I'm not convinced that suicide is "murder" in every case.
I also believe it's better not to tread into this area concerning suicide unless you are a pastor and have to deal with it because it is so fraught with difficulties. Namely mental illness.
It's easy to pass judgment sitting comfortably in one's chair but dare you tell grieving parents that their teenage son is in hell because he "murdered" himself when in fact satan and/or his emissaries actually killed him through mental torture?
It's not normal for a human being to desire to die so badly that they attempt it and sometimes succeed.
For one thing, I know for fact that Christians can and do become mentally ill.
In the case of a Christian committing suicide: Yes it's possible, but it's impossible for that one to perish.
Even the law of the land often says "innocent by reason of insanity".
Is the law of the land more merciful than God?
Be careful:
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Leave it to God:
James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
HankD
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I have some questions myself:
Fearful: These folks are not going to heaven? Fear of what and/or whom?
Abominable: Why are they "abominable"?
Liars: How many lies must one tell before that one is considered by God to be a liar?
One must define each of these terms.
murderers Personally, I'm not convinced that suicide is "murder" in every case.
I also believe it's better not to tread into this area concerning suicide unless you are a pastor and have to deal with it because it is so fraught with difficulties. Namely mental illness.
It's easy to pass judgment sitting comfortably in one's chair but dare you tell grieving parents that their teenage son is in hell because he "murdered" himself when in fact satan and/or his emissaries actually killed him through mental torture?
It's not normal for a human being to desire to die so badly that they attempt it and sometimes succeed.
For one thing, I know for fact that Christians can and do become mentally ill.
In the case of a Christian committing suicide: Yes it's possible, but it's impossible for that one to perish.
Even the law of the land often says "innocent by reason of insanity".
Is the law of the land more merciful than God?
Be careful:
James 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Leave it to God:
James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?
HankD
HankD, you have posted some interesting thoughts.
Think about this. If you actually read the statement about who is NOT allowed into heaven, it is all of us. We are all sinners; whether liers, murderers, idolators (love of money, whatever).
Now, add this to the fact that Jesus Christ has washed us as clean as snow and all of a sudden our sins are removed when we face the judgement of God. This includes ALL sins, sin before, sin during and sin after the fact.
I think if you will read the verses in context this is the conclusion you will draw. It is not a matter of just how many lies I tell. If I tell one lie, I am a liar. All men fit into this category with the exception of those who have accepted the grace that Jesus has offered us.
IMHO
Think about this. If you actually read the statement about who is NOT allowed into heaven, it is all of us. We are all sinners; whether liers, murderers, idolators (love of money, whatever).
Now, add this to the fact that Jesus Christ has washed us as clean as snow and all of a sudden our sins are removed when we face the judgement of God. This includes ALL sins, sin before, sin during and sin after the fact.
I think if you will read the verses in context this is the conclusion you will draw. It is not a matter of just how many lies I tell. If I tell one lie, I am a liar. All men fit into this category with the exception of those who have accepted the grace that Jesus has offered us.
IMHO
Brother Ian
Active Member
Suicide is wrong, but it is not the unpardonable sin.
If you are a born again Christian and die, you go to heaven no matter how you died.
If you are a born again Christian and die, you go to heaven no matter how you died.
I don't suppose any of you has ever struggled with the temptation of suicide, or dealt with some one who has? (And I am speaking of professing Christians.)
If you have done so, you would probably have a different perspective on this subject as I do. I DO believe a born-again child of God can choose to commit suicide and that they will be in Heaven with God forever. They will be robbing themselves of the blessing of seeing God work through their trials, and they probably will miss out on the Crown of Life (James 1:12), but if God is True, they will NOT miss out on Heaven.
If you have done so, you would probably have a different perspective on this subject as I do. I DO believe a born-again child of God can choose to commit suicide and that they will be in Heaven with God forever. They will be robbing themselves of the blessing of seeing God work through their trials, and they probably will miss out on the Crown of Life (James 1:12), but if God is True, they will NOT miss out on Heaven.
Agreed. That applies to righteousness, credible witness, and fruits. It does not apply to a condition of salvation. If it did, we're all hellbound, because we have all sinned, and done so after repentance.
My experience is that it has been the most hyperconservative who think that, not the liberal. It is many in the liberal who often stress good works to the point of salvation being by works.