If a Christian commits suicide...

[tinytim]

Yes Phillip that is what I meant.

StraightandNarrow, you asked for one verse where Jesus invited someone to believe in him to be saved.
Here it is: John 3:16
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why let's add verse 15 while were at it:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And something that Paul wrote:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Yes that is a simple answer to your Question, but God gave us a simple plan of salvation, not one that we must jump through the right hoops.

You mentioned that the devil believes Christ exists, but that is not what "beleiving in Christ" is anyway. A person can believe that Christ existed, but if they don't TRUST in Christ alone for their forgiveness of sins they are relying in themselves to keep them saved, and no matter how you slice it, if you are relying in yourself to do something to stay saved, you are not TRUSTING Christ. If you don't TRUST Christ, you are not saved.

Therefore, anyone that believes they must keep themselves saved, should question their salvation because they are not fully relying on the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by tinytim:
Yes Phillip that is what I meant.

StraightandNarrow, you asked for one verse where Jesus invited someone to believe in him to be saved.
Here it is: John 3:16
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Why let's add verse 15 while were at it:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And something that Paul wrote:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Yes that is a simple answer to your Question, but God gave us a simple plan of salvation, not one that we must jump through the right hoops.

You mentioned that the devil believes Christ exists, but that is not what "beleiving in Christ" is anyway. A person can believe that Christ existed, but if they don't TRUST in Christ alone for their forgiveness of sins they are relying in themselves to keep them saved, and no matter how you slice it, if you are relying in yourself to do something to stay saved, you are not TRUSTING Christ. If you don't TRUST Christ, you are not saved.

Therefore, anyone that believes they must keep themselves saved, should question their salvation because they are not fully relying on the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Excellent post. If justification is dependant on us in any means, we could never maintain it.

 

[Phillip]

That is correct, Webdog. Pure and simple. God wants us to know that we are not capable of reaching heaven by ourselves.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
He also had one other requirement... Go, and sin no more!

Agreed. That applies to righteousness, credible witness, and fruits. It does not apply to a condition of salvation. If it did, we're all hellbound, because we have all sinned, and done so after repentance.
</font>[/QUOTE]Yep, yep, yep!

"Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved (unless you commit suicide)."

It's interesting how many things people add to the gospel of salvation.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18


What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6:1-2


We are justified by one Man's righoutous act (Jesus) not by our own acts.

The retorical question is asked

Shall we continue to sin? (read: do we have a licence to sin?)

The answer CERTAINLY NOT

Our salvation depends on Jesus righoutous act alone not our ability to do or not to do something. And as you see we still are not given a licence to sin. We attempt to do right, to not sin, to do good works, NOT to be saved Not to stay saved. But because we ARE ALREADY SAVED.

I thank the Lord my salvation does not rest on my ability to abstain from sin. If it did we would all be lost. For all have sinned, and the wages of all sin is death.

The question is not a rhetorical one if a person return's to his sin like a dog to his vomit. You might argue that such a person was never saved at all but Christians will allow Christ and the Holy Spirit to lead their way. If sin becomes their master and they turn away from God they are not Christians. I'm not talking about an occasional sin. Everyone will continue to do that. I'm talking about who is the master of your life.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Phillip:
You know good and well what he means about original texts. Revelation was pieced together using somewhere between six and thirteen different pieces of manuscripts, all of which were different.

Finally, that is interesting, you are adding works to salvation. So, what is the "work" you had to do to get your gift of grace from Jesus?

Do you believe that we actually have the original copy of the books of the Bible as written by? Don't you know that the sources of the Vulgate, KJV, and NIV (for example) were different?

I'm not adding works to the requirement for salvation. We are saved by the Grace of God. There are several warnings in the Bible, however, about what happens if we no longer put Christ first in our lives and once again put Satan first as we did before we were saved.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Bro. Ruben]

I miss these posts.

Originally posted by Brother James:
Did not Sampson kill himself when he killed the Phillistines?

I don’t believe that Samson committed suicide.

First off, Samson was a prisoner of war. In the book of Judges, we were told that the Philistines gathered together to offer a great sacrifice to their god, Dagon. Then they call Samson in and made fun of him, exalting their god for delivering him into his (Dagon) hand.

Samson, being a man chosen by God, heard all the ridicule, mockery and scorns of the people around him. He’s only blind but not deaf. He can’t take on all the ridicules being hurled against the Lord Almighty.

If Samson was not all blind, surely he could have used his power and then maybe grab a weapon and kill as many enemies as he could since his hairs had started to grow back. But the only means to kill the enemies was to put the house down.

He even prayed to God to grant him power to break the pillars using his strength. I don’t believe God would answer a prayer of a man who had planned to commit suicide just to enter paradise. Putting the pillars down was the means to kill the enemies.

28 And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord GOD, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.

Originally posted by DeeJay:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I don’t believe a real Christian who has hope would commit suicide at any given instance or circumstance.

This was my first reaction, but I dont think it is correct. One good example is above by Alcott. What about those who choose to murder themselfs in the trade centers instead of burn up. Are they all in hell.

The Bible teaches the doctrine of OSAS even thought it does not use those words. I dont understand your post. Do you agree that OSAS or not. You seem to believe in OSAS then argue against it, calling it the teaching of man.

The passage being used not only deals with murderers it also deals with liers. Would you put lieing in the place of murder in your post.
For instance would you say

A real Christian would never lie. And a person who lies will not enter heaven. The Bible also says no liers go to Heavan Period. It says nothing about saved liers. </font>[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Did not Sampson kill himself when he killed the Phillistines?

Interesting. I believe he did. </font>[/QUOTE]I believe in OSAS; I never called it the “teaching of man”. What I was saying is that there is no such direct verse on OSAS. Can you show me one?

Yes, truly it says that liars would not get to heaven. But liars can still ask for forgiveness. Have you seen a dead Christian who committed suicide on his knees asking God to forgive him?

Originally posted by DeeJay:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Jumping off the burning World Trade Towers during the 9/11 incident was one way to escape death.

If killing your self is the sin then it is always a sin. You justify it in some instances and for some reasons but not others. What you are saying is killing yourself is a sin, unless you have a good reason.

They did not jump to prolong there lifes. They jumped because they did not want to die painfully by fire. The same reason as somebody who chooses to kill them self by shooting themself instead of by cancer.

By the way I must stress I do not condone suicide for any reason. I beleave it to be a sin. But like you (i think) I do not believe a believer can loose salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]When those people in the tower jumped off, killing their selves was not in their mind. In spite they somehow knew that they might die once they hit the ground. But what if they hit a soft ground and live?

It was more suicidal if they didn’t jump at all.

Can you now spot the difference?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

also, those that jumped from the fire may have been overcome with the smoke and blindly jumped. We do not know what went through their minds at that time.

 

[Alcott]

But if they did know where they were and the inevitable result of 'jumping' or letting themselves fall, then they are in hell, regardless of anything else?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If God is true to His Word, and we know He is, then all who murder themselves intentionally are in hell.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
If God is true to His Word, and we know He is, then all who murder themselves intentionally are in hell.

I challenge you to show me one single verse that states such, assuming you are referring to the lake of fire as "hell".

 

[Bro. Ruben]

There is a big difference between "intentionally jumping off a tower” from “jumping off a burning tower set fire by the terrorists."

A non-Christian, who leaps intentionally or unintentionally “from a tower” or “from a burning tower set fire by the terrorists” may die and go to hell. Either way, he goes to hell.

But a Christian who jumps from a tower intentionally, that, I have my own reservation.

You see, I would have serious doubts about the genuineness of faith of anyone who claimed to be a Christian yet committed suicide. There is no circumstance that can justify someone, especially a Christian, taking his or her own life. Christians are called to live their lives for God – the decision on when to die is God’s and God’s alone.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen, Brother Ruben. I agree. The Word of God tells us He will not put on us more than we can bear. He will not put on so much that we should even consider suicide.

Also, we are not our own to decide when we should live or die. We have been bought with a price.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Amen, Brother Ruben. I agree. The Word of God tells us He will not put on us more than we can bear.

Where does it say that, please?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Amen, Brother Ruben. I agree. The Word of God tells us He will not put on us more than we can bear. He will not put on so much that we should even consider suicide.

Hmmm, consider-

Moses- Numbers 11:14,15
Elijah- 1 Kings 19:4
Jonah- Jonah 4:3,8

Admittedly, none of them commited suicide. But they DID come to the point that they wished to die.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

quote:Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Amen, Brother Ruben. I agree. The Word of God tells us He will not put on us more than we can bear.

Where does it say that, please?

Try reading 1 Corinthians 10:13

 

[Helen]

Not once have I seen in these seven pages a reference to God knowing the heart. Don't you folks think THAT is the primary thing? Why are so many of you so quick to sit in judgment over other human beings? Don't you know that with the judgment you use, you will be judged?

In addition, and this has been mentioned, and ignored by some of the others, Christ DIED for ALL sin. It is ALL atoned for. You go to hell for not believing in Him, not because you sinned an any way after salvation. For anyone to say that someone will go to hell for committing suicide is saying that whoops! Christ missed one! One sin is not atoned for!

Now, suicide and a lot of other things may result in a loss of rewards and praise in heaven, but it will not result in a loss of heaven itself. NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. Not even ourselves, once we are born again in the Spirit.

Is this a license to sin? It would be if your heart were not changed when you were born again. A born again person does not WANT to sin, so the question of license is moot. And yet we do sin. And we hate it. That is the point. The person who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit does not want to sin and deeply regrets it when it is pointed out to him that he has. To say that they have a license to sin is sort of like telling me I have license to stand on my head in the corner until I pass out. Wonderful. Thank you for the freedom. But I think I will pass on that one, thank you!

Suicide, by the way, is not only an active, one-time act. All you who are judging, do you drink any beverages with aspartame in them instead of sugar? You are playing with fire, for aspartame damages brains. Check it on the net. Have you ever driven too fast? Easier to lose control of the car -- a form of suicide, possibly. Are you overweight from eating too much? Strain on your heart -- a form of suicide.

And Mexdeaf mentioned something else -- pain. This one I know about personally. I was born again in my mid-twenties. When I was 30 a cyst on an ovary blew, touching off my appendix, which also blew. No one knew the appendix was involved, so they waited a couple of days for surgery. My pain intensified to the point where I had the rather sure knowledge I might not make it through this thing. I was right. I died in surgery and was brought back (sorry, no lights. They had to tell me about it later).

For the next THREE days morphine did not touch the pain. I passed out from pain and woke up from pain. Surgery had been on Thursday. By Sunday my body was tiring of fighting and I was sinking and I knew it and I didn't care anymore. Anything to be rid of the pain. The sinking feeling was like slowly descending into a quiet, dark, velvety place and it was lovely.

I was quite aware that I had a choice about whether to live or die and you know something? I didn't care. I was too exhausted.

I am alive today because others cared for me and prayed me through that night. I woke up Monday morning and sat up and was thirsty and the doctor just about dropped his eyeballs when he came in to check me.

If no one had prayed for me, would my deat have been a form of suicide? Very possibly, yes. If no one had prayed for me, would they have then been responsible for murdering me? I'll leave that one to you judges....

Pain can do it, folks. But then so can fat bellies, anger, aspartame, and thousands of other things.

There ARE those men who have jumped on mines to save their buddies. They are guilty of suicide.


But, then, so was Christ, wasn't HE?

 

[Helen]

Standing, I thought you were going to reference that verse. That has nothing to do with what you are trying to make it mean. It says that we will not have any TEMPTATION beyond what we can bear. And that is a whole different story! Through Christ there is no temptation we cannot resist.

However, I know from my own life that there is not a day that goes by that God does not allow more into my life than I can bear myself. I have to depend on Him for everything -- all my strength and patience and wisdom to deal with each day. If they don't come from Him, I am, indeed, overwhelmed.

1 Corinthians 10:13 has GOT to be one of the most mis-quoted verses in the Bible!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Suicide, by the way, is not only an active, one-time act. All you who are judging, do you drink any beverages with aspartame in them instead of sugar? You are playing with fire, for aspartame damages brains. Check it on the net. Have you ever driven too fast? Easier to lose control of the car -- a form of suicide, possibly. Are you overweight from eating too much? Strain on your heart -- a form of suicide.

Don't forget alcohol. It damages brain cells also. And kidneys, and livers, etc....

Standing, I thought you were going to reference that verse. That has nothing to do with what you are trying to make it mean. It says that we will not have any TEMPTATION beyond what we can bear. And that is a whole different story! Through Christ there is no temptation we cannot resist.

However, I know from my own life that there is not a day that goes by that God does not allow more into my life than I can bear myself. I have to depend on Him for everything -- all my strength and patience and wisdom to deal with each day. If they don't come from Him, I am, indeed, overwhelmed.

If one truly is a bornagain Christian, then we have the strength to resist temptation... including suicide.

You may disagree if you wish, but Revelation states that all murderers will find their home in the lake of fire. Suicide is murder, and one who commits suicide is not placing faith in Christ to bear them through temptations that come upon them.

 

[Helen]

So, did Christ commit suicide?