If "Any Man" Thirst

[TCassidy]

Here you go, @TCassidy, @thatbrian seems to think Lazarus was raised from the dead to show Regeneration.

You will have to take that up with him.

 

[TCassidy]

If one says that this is a picture of regeneration and then continues to use the analogy of a dead man to explain regeneration, i'd say they have a faulty premise in their Theology

You will have to take that up with them.

 

[HankD]

No for me. I see the context saying he was already a believer and friend of Jesus, so he had spiritual hearing even though the body was dead.

Inconclusive - see Jerome's post #39

 

[agedman]

Yes.
Matthew 26:50 And Jesus said unto him [Judas], Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

And do you not know for what reason the Christ called him “friend?”

Do you not know that the original language is not using “friend” as a helper, but as an imposter?

Really?

Certainly you are not so lacking in understanding as to miss this in the Scriptures?

For that would not at all be the image I have of your posts.

 

[agedman]

Scripture says of the rich young ruler, Jesus loved him.

Mark 10:20-22 And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

And that is supposed to change the issue?

Does not the Scripture state Jesus wept?

Didn’t change that the claim that just anyone thirsts after righteousness.

Especially considering the clear teaching of Scriptures that not a single person “seeks” or “hungers” outside of those in whom appointment of salvation is purposed.

 

[thatbrian]

Once again, In John 7, Christ did not qualify His statement. He just said, "If anyone thirsts, come to HIM."

In the Beatitudes, Christ qualifies His statements of those who are blessed, as they hunger and thirst, "For Righteousness."

Context is key...(as always) ....John 8 tells us what Christ meant concerning the Thirsty Soul.

If Jesus didn't qualify His statement, then He is obviously speaking about water, right? I don't think so.

 

[thatbrian]

Raising Lazarus and the Valley of Dry Bones have something in common. . .

 

[InTheLight]

Raising Lazarus and the Valley of Dry Bones have something in common. . .

Yes. Neither of them has anything to do with regeneration preceding salvation.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

The story of Lazarus is being used as a spiritual illustration of what Paul wrote concerning the saints who were in Ephesus, that they were “dead in trespasses and sins” and were made “alive together with Christ” (Ephesians 2:1, 5). However, it neither proves nor disproves anything in and of itself. However, it was the same “great might” that was “worked in Christ when he [God] raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places” (Ephesians 1:20). He also "raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:9). With that in mind, it is very unlikely that Paul understood salvation synergistically.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Really? Go up to a dead man in a casket and tell him he is ugly. See how he responds. Offer to take him out to lunch. See how he responds. Offer him something to drink. See how he responds.

Saying "all I see here is circular reasoning" seems to indicate your desperation.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Well yeah, none of us are Jesus
The "voice of the Lord" of Psalm 29 CAN do it.

 

[TCassidy]

Inconclusive - see Jerome's post #39

I read his post. It is a complete non-sequitur.

 

[Iconoclast]

Was this miracle done to reveal Regeneration? or the Resurrection from the Dead at Christ's Coming?

Jon....maybe we can let Jesus tell us what HE meant by it;
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

So Jon....Spiritually dead [eph2] corpses spiritually...who believe, having been quickened by God...shall never die? Do you believe this? Could it be......Both???

 

[HankD]

I read his post. It is a complete non-sequitur.

OK.

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight,

The problem with Calvinist theology claiming "dead men can't see", "dead men can't thirst", "dead men can't _________", is that the whole thing is question begging.

Actually...it is scriptural truth 1cor2;14, romans 8:7...CANNOT...you say they can....Pastor Bob claims they CAN...scripture says they cannot.

The "dead men" examples rely on the a priori conclusion that unregenerated people are dead and can't do anything.

No..they can do many things, that scripture refers to as dead works...they can be religious like the pope, or any cult....But they can do nothing to get saved on God's terms.... nothing.

But Paul says that while the Jews won't listen the Gentiles will (Acts 28:28)

.

yes...because Paul knew God had elected a multitude among the gentiles...he wrote about it in all His epistles..

So here we have a verse saying that God's chosen people are "dead" and can't hear, but the unregenerate "dead" Gentiles can hear. Hmmm...

yes...not all israel was of Israel....
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Iconoclast]

I also added that Christ didn't qualify His statement...He just said, "If anyone thirsts....come to me..." He did not say, if anyone thirsts for God...

And certainly, Christ's follow up statement about "anyone believing on Him" must have to do with the imperative of "Come to Me". If you are thirsty, come to Christ--Believing He is the one who would satisfy your soul. And then John 8 Gives us a fine picture of this.

YES...Jesus describes exactly all who will come....
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me

no more. no less.....If you can get anyone to come who the father did not give...go right ahead

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is one... @Iconoclast says the Miracle of the Lazarus being raised from the dead is demonstrating the spiritual truth of Regeneration

Four questions for Calvinists.

You can take that up with me, Not seek to pit me , or brian, against TC.
It is both last day resurrection, which his sister knew, but more importantly it does illustrate life from the dead......same as ezk37..can these bones live? like when jesus said is it easier to say rise and and walk, or your sins are forgiven you. Miracles were used to teach.
here is the teaching there;
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Jesus was clearly speaking to spiritually dead (thirsty) people. Spiritually alive people would not need to drink from the water of life after the very first taste (John 4:14, John 6:35). So, your reasoning is very circular. In essence, "I don't believe that man can choose to come to Christ, therefore; this passage must mean something different."


There it is...


Amen! All this happened the very moment I placed my faith and trust in Him!

Respectfully Pastor BOB, You didn't have any faith. Faith is a gift just as scripture says.

I do not doubt your salvation, only your assumption of how you came to be saved.

 

[JonShaff]

You can take that up with me, Not seek to pit me , or brian, against TC.
It is both last day resurrection, which his sister knew, but more importantly it does illustrate life from the dead......same as ezk37..can these bones live? like when jesus said is it easier to say rise and and walk, or your sins are forgiven you. Miracles were used to teach.
here is the teaching there;
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Good evening, brother!

First of all, I am not seeking to pit you or Brian against TC. I was simply showing that the spiritual corpse analogy doesn't hold any water and that calvinists cannot agree as to what was going on in the Lazarus passage. Before I was asked to quote examples, I figured I'd demonstrate what I was talking about by quoting you and Brian. No harm intended.

Secondly, if Lazarus is a teaching about Regeneration, then this passage shows that Belief Happens before Regeneration. Do you really want to use this passage to negate your view of Soteriology?

John 11:25

 

[thatbrian]

Good evening, brother!

First of all, I am not seeking to pit you or Brian against TC. I was simply showing that the spiritual corpse analogy doesn't hold any water and that calvinists cannot agree as to what was going on in the Lazarus passage. Before I was asked to quote examples, I figured I'd demonstrate what I was talking about by quoting you and Brian. No harm intended.

Secondly, if Lazarus is a teaching about Regeneration, then this passage shows that Belief Happens before Regeneration. Do you really want to use this passage to negate your view of Soteriology?

John 11:25

First, how do you see spiritual deadness? You can't. With all other healing miracles you could see the condition the person suffered from, but not with spiritual death.

Second, when Jesus healed the blind, He demonstrated a spiritual truth. He demonstrated that He would make the spiritually blind see. When He healed the deaf, He demonstrated that He could/would open our spiritual ears. When He spoke to the woman at the well, He used water to represent spiritual life. . . All of these physical miracles represented the spiritual reality of a physical state.

Now, when you come to the raising of Lazarus you choose to see it as a one for one physical reality. You assert that Jesus raised to dead body to show us that He will raise dead bodies. That does not fit with any other miracle He performed. Water to wine, loaves and fishes, walking on water. . . None of the miracles were a physical reality demonstrating a physical reality. They were physical realities demonstrating spiritual realities.

 

[thatbrian]

R.C. Sproul seems to be of the same opinion as I am regarding the meaning of this miracle, so I'm in good company. That doesn't mean I'm correct, but it means I'm not making a wild assertion.

Ligonier Ministries

". . .Dr. Sproul explains how this is a picture of how we were dead in our trespasses, but made alive in Christ."
​

If I am wrong regarding the intent of the miracle, we see God acting monergistically. He speaks and His own come. Even though they are spiritually dead or physically dead, they respond to His call.