IF believer In Doctrines of Grace, Why baptists and NOT presby?

[convicted1]

As there was no Christian teaching of a “rapture” before Darby began preaching about it in the 1830s, he is sometimes credited with originating the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will suddenly remove His bride, the Church, from this world before the judgments of the tribulation. Some claim that this book was the origin of the idea of the "rapture." Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism, because "God is able to graft them in again," and they believe that in His grace he will do so according to their understanding of Old Testament prophecy. They believe that, while the ways of God may change, His purposes to bless Israel will never be forgotten, just as He has shown unmerited favour to the Church, He will do so to a remnant of Israel to fulfill all the promises made to the genetic seed of Abraham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Darby_(evangelist)

 

[convicted1]

To brother dhk

Look Brother, I am sure we can post, cut and paste, things that support oour views, and the other will state we are "wrongly" dividing the Word. Let's call a truce, and let sleeping dogs lie. I pray that my response to you did not come off spitefully towards you. You just can put a "tone" to these posts through a keyboard and computer monitor.


I vehemently disagree with your view, and so do you towards mine. Truce? :love2:

 

[DHK]

Look Brother, I am sure we can post, cut and paste, things that support oour views, and the other will state we are "wrongly" dividing the Word. Let's call a truce, and let sleeping dogs lie. I pray that my response to you did not come off spitefully towards you. You just can put a "tone" to these posts through a keyboard and computer monitor.


I vehemently disagree with your view, and so do you towards mine. Truce? :love2:

You may not agree with me, but one thing I detest is association with name. I have never read Darby, nor have I seen or read LaHaye's series. So, why associate me with those? I believed in dispensationalism long before I ever heard of the name LaHaye, or Darby.

If you want history on your side, you don't have it. The ECF believed in Chiliasm. That was the "thousand year kingdom." It was the very kingdom that you deny. Premillenialism is a natural outgrowth of that, an extension of it. It is nothing new. For you to say that it is Darby's idea is an argument out of silence. The ECF believed in the Kingdom. How do you know that in between the ECF and Darby there were not those that believed in pre-millenialism. It is an unfounded accusation based on an argument of silence. It is a logical fallacy. The fallacy is a universal negative. There is a period there of what? About 1500 years? (the time of Darby to the ECF). And you and your fellows are saying this: "No one believed in pre-millenialism or the rapture for 1500 years." That is a logical fallacy called a universal negative. How would you prove it? You would have to go back into every single of those 1500 years, gather every single book that has ever been written (destroyed or otherwise) and find out if it taught premil or dispensationalism. You would also have to be able to discern throughout all those years if it was faithfully preached from any of the pulpits and not recorded. Many truths are. Your argument from silence is a universal negative which is impossible to prove.

So Darby and others really have nothing to do with this.
I believe what I believe because that is what the Bible teaches, not because others believe it.

 

[JesusFan]

You may not agree with me, but one thing I detest is association with name. I have never read Darby, nor have I seen or read LaHaye's series. So, why associate me with those? I believed in dispensationalism long before I ever heard of the name LaHaye, or Darby.

If you want history on your side, you don't have it. The ECF believed in Chiliasm. That was the "thousand year kingdom." It was the very kingdom that you deny. Premillenialism is a natural outgrowth of that, an extension of it. It is nothing new. For you to say that it is Darby's idea is an argument out of silence. The ECF believed in the Kingdom. How do you know that in between the ECF and Darby there were not those that believed in pre-millenialism. It is an unfounded accusation based on an argument of silence. It is a logical fallacy. The fallacy is a universal negative. There is a period there of what? About 1500 years? (the time of Darby to the ECF). And you and your fellows are saying this: "No one believed in pre-millenialism or the rapture for 1500 years." That is a logical fallacy called a universal negative. How would you prove it? You would have to go back into every single of those 1500 years, gather every single book that has ever been written (destroyed or otherwise) and find out if it taught premil or dispensationalism. You would also have to be able to discern throughout all those years if it was faithfully preached from any of the pulpits and not recorded. Many truths are. Your argument from silence is a universal negative which is impossible to prove.

So Darby and others really have nothing to do with this.
I believe what I believe because that is what the Bible teaches, not because others believe it.

we can debate IF there is actually a pre trib rapture in the Bible, as I would hold to, but there can belittle doubt that from the perspective of the Bible, Apostles, early church fathers as a whole etc...

that the prominent held belief was pre mil, and that jesus would come back to rule over a restored isreal as their King messiah at that time!

 

[JesusFan]

Again...that is what premill books say...but not what scripture says.

the Kingdom was present here in the person of Jesus, and the Church is part of that Kingdom, not the fullnes of it though, and remember that jesus did NOT say that the Kingdom was taken away, but that it was to be stablished by the father at that time, and peter made it clear that Jesus will return to set up that for the jewish nation/peoples, but as Paul also stated, that will occur when the fulness of the gentiles come in, and than shall the Messiah return to fully set up the Kingdom on earth at his second coming, and all isreal of that time shall be saved!