If certain "Baptists" don't believe the Bible is God's Holy Word,

[suzanne]

Originally posted by post-it:

You can't stop sinning if you wanted to. Wanting to stop sinning is the most one can do.

Even our best human efforts to be all that God wants us to be can't be compared to what the Lord can do. What a limp excuse. "I want to stop sinning, but I just can't, but my intentions are good." You're saying that God is powerless to do anything for us in regards to a changed life.

Can a heroin addict continue taking drugs after being saved and still be saved?

If a heroin addict continued using (which would involve old relationships and his supplier)after being saved perhaps he went to the wrong church and did not hear the good news. A saved persons life is impacted and they become different. I agree that it doesn't happen all at once, but someone in drugs and desparate enough to come the Lord for salvation would not want to continue in the old life.

no requirement to become unaddicted to drugs, many can't get off once they start. Yes many will and have, but not every one of them will be able to do so. Their life has been shot. But they will find peace at the end of this troubled life. Some sins can be ended, others will not...Our weakness for sin is caused by sin nature. Sin nature does NOT GO AWAY

How hopeless this sounds. It negates the power of the Holy Spirit to renew us. The word repent speaks of going in an opposite direction. If God is not able to help us change, why should we repent. This also answers the addiction to porn, gossip. We do not have to be in bondage to our sin

I have no real interest in talking to someone that wants to come out of the homosexual orientation.

I did not say Orientation....I said lifestyle. Big difference. Obviously you have to idea what kind of lifestyle most gays live. It is a choice and it is a learned behaviour. Remember, I'm not talking about orientation, I'm speaking of lifestyle.

I do have a lot of war stories dealing with Gays mainly with their parents in our families.
The missing father/mother relationship, that is the most difficult part of their life. If the relationship were there, you wouldn't have the free for all sex attitudes that is commonly associated with many homosexuals. It is because parents turn away from them.

Excuse number 543. You're dreaming if you think that suddenly there would be changes in free for all sexual attitudes in gays if only their relationship with their family were better. There are also many parents out there who accept and love their gay children but that does not always affect the lifestyle choices that are made.

It is hard not to know any since they are everywhere, even in your family. Of course, the homosexuals in your family may not have told you about it since they already know how low and evil you think they are unless they change.

There are homosexuals in my family, too. I do not think they are evil or low, but a sinner just like me. The difference is they choose to continue in bondage and do not want to give up their fleshly desires, even though many recognize the damage it is doing to themselves.

As a Christian, I have a compelling urge to be pleasing before the Lord. I think this is the Holy Spirit that urges me. If the Bible says don't do something because it displeases the Lord, than I, choosing to come under His loving Lordship, would want to change for Him. (And this is not about works, so don't even go there)

suzanne

[ September 08, 2002, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: suzanne ]

 

[suzanne]

Originally posted by post-it:
[QB]If the Bible were the exact words of God, then it would be EXPLICIT.. What kind of God would dictate rules (which mean life and death,) which are ambiguous, unclear, and vague?

The rules only seem vague to those who do not accept them. Kind of like my son when he was little and he wanted to find loophole or he just wanted to argue

suzanne

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by post-it:
If a homosexual feels he is sinning, then he should try to stop, but if he does not see marrying as sin, then there is nothing to stop. Kissing and dating... no sin there either.

Post it I feel some people are getting overwrought with you because they don't think you have answered their question. i think i know your answer but just for the record do you belive that Scripture teaches homosexual activity of any kind (married or not) is sin? Maybe if you will just give a yes or no answer thwy wwill leave you alone.
Murph

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Murphy,

I think I know the answer to this question. Post-it does not believe the Biblr teaches that it is a sin. The only reason I know this is because he made such statements in a thread in all other discussions a long time ago when I was the moderator there and I remembered them.

For the record, though, just in case anyone might want to label me a liberal, I don't agree with him.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
i think i know your answer but just for the record do you belive that Scripture teaches homosexual activity of any kind (married or not) is sin? Maybe if you will just give a yes or no answer thwy wwill leave you alone.
Murph[/QB]

Sex outside of marriage is a sin. Homosexual or heterosexual. It was not the custom back in the Bible day's to be given in marriage if homosexual. Most homosexuals were not saved either, just as other sexual professionals would not give up prostitution.

Paul called them effeminate. Men who dressed or acted as women to have sex with men for money. Of course that is a sin.

But a healthy loving couple who date and finally marry and live a Christian life as homosexual or heterosexual is not sin.

[ September 09, 2002, 03:04 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by post-it:

But a healthy loving couple who date and finally marry and live a Christian life as homosexual or heterosexual is not sin.[/QB]

Thank you Post it I hope this will clear up the issue for those who have possibly misunderstood you. As suredly as I felt I knew your answer I know you realize my view is in direct opposition to yours. But I do thank you for the responce.
Murph

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by post-it:
Accidental sin isn't counted? Ok that makes a lot of sense (not). I accidentally though a bad thought today. Well, I won't let that ever happen again. POOF I know I'm saved. Right!

Hey, thanks. You did my job for me. Once again you shot down your own arguments with your own words.

From earlier in thread
There are circumstances where an act is a sin and circumstances where it is not a sin. Intent has everything to do with it.

So far you have argued several things:

1. Intent is what makes something a sin
2. The heart convicting makes it a sin
3. Everything Post-it says is a sin is a sin, everything he doesn't is not a sin.

1 and 2 can't play nicely with God or the bible and 3 makes you out to be God.

1 destroys your previous statement above about accidental sin (your words, once again disproving your own argument)

2 means no absolute rights or wrongs...none...you cannot claim anything to be wrong ever (think about this for a minute).

3 means you are either 1.) not honest 2.) not christian 3.) stupid.

I never said they shouldn't. I said it would be impossible to stop the act of sinning. If a homosexual feels he is sinning, then he should try to stop, but if he does not see marrying as sin, then there is nothing to stop. Kissing and dating... no sin there either.

Ok, so if I don't feel that premarital sex is wrong, I'm good. Once again, you can't support this illogical argument.

No, I never said that, in fact I said we should try not to sin. The effort to not sin is what we should be doing as Christians. We just won't be able to be successful. Which is what Paul said. This is why it can't be any part of salvation which is what you seem to think.

I never said it is part of salvation. Salvation is from grace through faith. Though, Christians are known by their works....so...logical conclusion...if you are "saved" and still want to/continue because you like to sin, you might want to look to see if you really are saved. Remember, not all those who claim Jesus's name really know Him (from the bible...if you didn't know the reference).

BTW, another strawman.

Well you continue to sin in thought, do you question your salvation? Jesus made it very clear that we all are sinners everyday and that it will not stop while we are alive. Salvation is attained through belief in Jesus and accepting what he did on the cross for us. That has nothing to do with sin, or going to church, or tithing, dancing, makeup, clothing, TV, if one is hooked on drugs, whatever.

This may suprise you, but yes. Everyday I take stock of my spiritual life and see if I am truley living for God or I am living for myself. So, in short, yes...I do. It is much more complicated than that, but you have shown an unwillingness to think about topics so I won't bring up this rather deep subject right now.

Your other comments were so off base, I can't even waste time on them. You didn't read what I said and twisted it.

Don't flatter yourself. Your writing is not complicated in anyway. What you said is what you said. I simply quoted you and showed you how it was wrong. If that is off base, if I am guilty because I showed you the error in your arguments, then we can have no further discusssions.

In Christ,
jason

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by post-it:

Sex outside of marriage is a sin. Homosexual or heterosexual. It was not the custom back in the Bible day's to be given in marriage if homosexual. Most homosexuals were not saved either, just as other sexual professionals would not give up prostitution.

Your standards for sin are quite inconsitent. Why would sex outside of marriage be a sin while homosexual sex (even in marriage) would not be? By what criteria do you label something "wrong"?

BTW. When you say that sex outside of marriage is wrong, you are making a universal statement. Yet, you quite clearly told me that 1. Intent is the key to sin and 2. The heart's conviction is also key. These two different statements about sin are NOT compatible. Either sex outside of marriage is wrong universally or it isn't. You say it is wrong (sex outside of marriage)...which is a universal statement. Yet, you quite clearly say that if a homosexual is not convicted of sin in his lifestyle, it can't be a sin. What if an 18 year old guy is not convicted of his sin with sex outside of marriage? You don't allow for this possibility in your two stances, so this is a contradiction in ideology. This contradiction nullifies your stance. You REALLY need to rethink your positions.

Let me clarify, just in case:

1. You said sex outside of marriage is wrong.
2. You said intent is key to sin.
3. You said if convicted of heart, is a sin, if not, not a sin.

Would I be sinning by you?

I am having sex outside of marriage (1) but I am not convicted of the heart (3) and my intent is to show my love to my girlfriend (2).

What is your answer to this?

Mind you, it is not enought to simply say "Yes, because it outside of marriage" as I have already shown this isn't consistent with your previous standard for sin. You must show the REASONS why sex outside of marriage is wrong. AND, you must show how it is not inconsistent with 2 and 3 above.

Paul called them effeminate. Men who dressed or acted as women to have sex with men for money. Of course that is a sin.

Why? Why would this be a sin and not homo sex inside of "marriage"? Until you give your guidelines for sin, guidelines which are completely compatible with all your previous statements, I am going to have keep hounding you about this.

Please don't continue to duck my questions.

In Christ,
jason

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Jason Post it has answered the question but let me say it again He doesn't feel that homosexuality is sin. That brick wall you are buttin your head against ain't movin.
Murph

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Jason Post it has answered the question but let me say it again He doesn't feel that homosexuality is sin. That brick wall you are buttin your head against ain't movin.
Murph

Murph:

I know...I know...but I have to give it a shot. A man such as PI, a man who claims to be logical HAS to start to see how illogical his position is when I consitantly use his own logic to debunk his positions. I am just trying to get through to him. It worked with several of my athiest and agnostic friends, got a buddhist friend thinking and asking WAY more questions and actually led a non-practicing catholic friend of mine to Jesus. My friend (the one who got saved) is the reason I don't give up. I feel the Lord has blessed me with an overly analytical mind (my wife doesn't see it this way...she thinks it is her burden at times ) so I can reach people such as PI.

I don't mind hitting my head against this brick wall...I don't mind it at all. As long as pray about it, I know this wall will come down someday, even if I am not the one to bring it down (I don't care how, just that the wall does come down). How about you pray for both of us? I am sure God would be delighted at the idea.

Thanks.

In Christ,
jason

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Prayers are on the way brother, I also would love to see the wall come down. I guess I just wanted to warn you because my head got pretty sore before I gave it up.

Murph

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Prayers are on the way brother, I also would love to see the wall come down. I guess I just wanted to warn you because my head got pretty sore before I gave it up.

Murph

Great! Another thing my wife gets annoyed with! I am stubborn, bullhead, thick...whatever the term. I can't really say she gets annoyed, more flustered. We use to mock debate topics, either randomly choosen or from the news. We won't anymore. Much like when we played chess, she hated losing all the time

Great girl, smart as a whip (Hey, she is the one who is the M.D., not me) but she can't quite get space relationships and think 6 moves ahead.

Anyway...keep on a prayin'!

In Christ,
jason

 

[post-it]

jasonW, you will need to think 7 moves ahead to win this argument. You seem to be blending my arguments (which are 3 different arguments)together. The only thing you have done in trying to prove me wrong is to take one base argument and blend it against another base argument which ends in an illogical conclusion. All you are doing is going around in circles. You aren't refuting each one on it's own merits. Let me line them up to help you out.

Argument 1.
Only the Holy Spirit will place in a person's heart what sin is for that person. Then applying Jesus' own "do unto others". There is no sin.

Argument 2. Each reference in the NT to homosexual behavior is centered on offensive moves like adultery/one night stand type sex. Usually the term is found next to prostitution. Marriage was never talked about, even though there were and had to be same sex living together.

Argument 3. When reference is given, it is always about the unsaved doing these sins. The saved person will continue to do some of them, but they aren't counted against him/her.

Now you can't blend the arguments together even though under some circumstances one could. But primarily they work as separate arguments and need to be addressed separately. I can't even begin to answer some of the twisted assumptions you have made, since you have blended these arguments into a single incoherent claim which I have not made.

I will start a new thread with this as the subject matter so we don't get torn into other arguments on Bible as God's Word.

[ September 09, 2002, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by post-it:
jasonW, you will need to think 7 moves ahead to win this argument. You seem to be blending my arguments (which are 3 different arguments)together. The only thing you have done in trying to prove me wrong is to take one base argument and blend it against another base argument which ends in an illogical conclusion. All you are doing is going around in circles. You aren't refuting each one on it's own merits. Let me line them up to help you out.

1. One base argument cannot be independant of another base argument when being used to support the same claim unless it is a special condition. You have claimed no special condition so my assumptions were valid. You are incorrect.

2. I used your own words to disprove you. If anybody did the twisting, it would have to have been you. I just used what you said to show how you contradicted yourself.

I can't even begin to answer some of the twisted assumptions you have made, since you have blended these arguments into a single incoherent claim which I have not made.

I assumed nothing. I used what you said and refuted it. I quoted you and showed you how your very words refuted your argument. I think you really need to reread the posts. Seriously...with critical reasoning skills employed.

In Christ,
jason

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by post-it:
If you believe that a homosexual can't be saved, if he/she doesn't stops sinning, why do you think you can be saved since you can't stop sinning?

You are righteous before God because you believe and accept Jesus; not because of works (not sinning), or efforts (trying not to sin) that follow.

Not true Post-it, you’re putting words in my mouth…… I never said that a homosexual couldn’t be saved, I’m just saying that they can’t remain in their present sinful condition once they are saved… The bible tells us plainly what sin is…. The Bible also tells us that the things that we once loved, after we’re saved, we’ll hate….

Let whosoever that names the name of Jesus depart from iniquity……

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Graceforever:
The bible tells us plainly what sin is…. The Bible also tells us that the things that we once loved, after we’re saved, we’ll hate….

Yes, but Paul also says we will continue doing that which we hate. He says it is not really you doing it but rather the sin nature of you that does. So where does that leave us on this issue. The homosexual can get saved, hate sinning, but continue doing it? Other scripture says if you continue doing sin, you won't get into heaven, you weren't really saved, but then why does Paul say we will continue in sin?

When you figure this scripture contridiction out let me know, until then, I will use the guidence of the Holy Spirit to guide me in the proper scriptures to adhere to and those that conflict with common sense and the rest of the Bible.

We will continue in some sins, and we are still saved.

 

[suzanne]

I Thess. 4:3-8

It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, HE WHO REJECTS THIS INSTRUCTION DOES NOT REJECT MAN BUT GOD, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Graceforever:
The bible tells us plainly what sin is…. The Bible also tells us that the things that we once loved, after we’re saved, we’ll hate….

Yes, but Paul also says we will continue doing that which we hate. He says it is not really you doing it but rather the sin nature of you that does. So where does that leave us on this issue. The homosexual can get saved, hate sinning, but continue doing it? Other scripture says if you continue doing sin, you won't get into heaven, you weren't really saved, but then why does Paul say we will continue in sin?

When you figure this scripture contridiction out let me know, until then, I will use the guidence of the Holy Spirit to guide me in the proper scriptures to adhere to and those that conflict with common sense and the rest of the Bible.

We will continue in some sins, and we are still saved.</font>[/QUOTE]Here we go again, post it! You and most liberal Christians seem to think that being saved is a license to continue as you want. Yes we will still commit sin as saved Christians but there are some that it shouldn't take a Brain Surgeon to know that it is totally against God's will to continue in. I, and others, have stated over and over that there are some sins that we should NEVER willfully continue. Homosemuality and murder are on the same level. How can you tell this young man(on another thread), that it is ok to continue and as you have stated earlier, to even get married? This would be the same as saying, ok, you are now a saved Christian to a rapist, murder, etc., that since you are saved, it is ok to continue IF you have a problem controlling your desires. You should be the opposite and tell this young man or anyone else, that you should not EVER continue with a Homosexual lifestyle and to seek medical help if needed. He and many others have problems enough without being encouraged by saying that it is ok that we are STILL sinful humans and since you are saved, you will still go to Heaven. I have doughts that anyone who would continue any of these life styles was saved to start with. Satan has a way of convincing many they are saved when they are not. Only God knows their TRUE heart. I should have put this on the young man's thread as it seems to me he isn't sure about his salvation. I might paste this on his thread later.

I would say to the young man to STOP before it is too late!

God Bless............Alex

[ September 14, 2002, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Alex ]

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Alex:
Here we go again, post it! You and most liberal Christians seem to think that being saved is a license to continue as you want. Yes we will still commit sin as saved Christians but there are some that it shouldn't take a Brain Surgeon to know that it is totally against God's will to continue in. I, and others, have stated over and over that there are some sins that we should NEVER willfully continue. Homosemuality and murder are on the same level. How can you tell this young man(on another thread), that it is ok to continue and as you have stated earlier, to even get married? This would be the same as saying, ok, you are now a saved Christian to a rapist, murder, etc., that since you are saved, it is ok to continue IF you have a problem controlling your desires. You should be the opposite and tell this young man or anyone else, that you should not EVER continue with a Homosexual lifestyle and to seek medical help if needed. He and many others have problems enough without being encouraged by saying that it is ok that we are STILL sinful humans and since you are saved, you will still go to Heaven. I have doughts that anyone who would continue any of these life styles was saved to start with. Satan has a way of convincing many they are saved when they are not. Only God knows their TRUE heart. I should have put this on the young man's thread as it seems to me he isn't sure about his salvation. I might paste this on his thread later.

I would say to the young man to STOP before it is too late!

God Bless............Alex

It's the same as Murder?... seek medical help?...ROTFL

, That's a good one Alex!

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by post-it:
[QB]

I hope you don't get sick laughing, post it, but as a liberal you completely missed the point because you don't want to accept the truth. The LEVEL of the sins of homosexuality and murder and rape and adultry......ARE ONE AND THE SAME as per the bible but you probabily threw that part out as man made. Those found guilty of any of these were given the death penality. Check it out for yourself IF that is in a liberals bible.

God Bless..........Alex