If Christ died for Judas just as He did for Peter

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ian;

Yes. The salvation of the OT saints was no different from ours. The gifts and priveleges were less, however.

Then why did Christ have to be sacrificed for man's Salvation?.

The scripture you have shown to support that Abraham was saved doesn't support his Salvation.

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

There is no other way to have eternal life other than Christ. Abraham's righteousness wasn't good enough.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Because Abraham believed God, it did not save Him. It only allowed him the opportunity to hear Christ preach to him in paradise. Paradise was that part of Hell where people went who believe and sought God. No one was saved before the atonement. If they were what atonement was available for them.
Only Christ can save you and Abraham didn't know Christ.
You should maybe look that scripture over again real close because it does not say what you claim.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[BobRyan]

Anyone who believes in the total depravity of man - can not look at the list of Heb 11 and say "yet that's it -- that's exactly the behavior we expect of totally depraved sinners".

Further more - Christ said in John 3 that the new birth was a "pre cross fact".

And finall - Paul says in Gal 1:6-11 -- only "ONE" Gospel.

IN Heb 4:1-2 we are told that the Gospel was "preached to US JUST as it was to them also".

In Romans 1:1-4 we are told that the OT text contains the gospel that Paul was preaching.

And in Gal 3:7 "God preached the Gospel beforehand to Abrahm".

John 8:50-60 "Abraham SAW My day and was glad".

It is all there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Enoch was "really taken to heaven without seeinhg death".

Elijah was "really taken to heaven" as we find in 2Kings 2.

The saints of the OT REALLY were born again as Heb 11 shows.

Real salvavtion for REALLY depraved lost humanity in the Real OT.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Apparently, the Everlasting Covenant of Grace was between the Three in One, the Eternal God, and man is nowhere even considered.

Salvation is ALL of the Lord. Independent of preachers, teachers, or man choosing Him.

So -- keeping his covenant with 1000's of generations of triune God's then?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bob;

Enoch was "really taken to heaven without seeinhg death".

Elijah was "really taken to heaven" as we find in 2Kings 2.

The saints of the OT REALLY were born again as Heb 11 shows.

I've read Romans 11 it does say that all Israel will be saved. It does not say they are already saved.

Enoch and Elijah never died but were taken directly to the heavens. It's obvious they knew something we don't or else God has a special purpose for them.

The bottom line is no one can be saved with out the atonement that is the blood of Christ. it is His blood and His covering that gives us the righteousness we need to be saved.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed - they were taken to heaven "really forgiven by the blood of Christ" PRE-Cross.

When Christ stated on numerous times to those who came to Him "PRE CROSS" --- "Your sins ARE forgiven" -- He meant it.

But HOW did He do it - since we KNOW real forgiveness can only come through the ONE Atoning Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross (as we are told in Heb 9-10)??

The answer is in Romans 4 "God counts those things that do not yet exist as though they are already". Because of that He calls Abraham the Father of many nations at the point he was not the father of even one - saying "I have made you the Father of many nations".

God is not bounded by time as you and I are. But that does not mean He cancels time.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Primitive Baptist]

"For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe." -I Timothy 4:10

First, God is the Savior of all men. He is not the potential Savior of all men. Second, God is the Savior of all men, "specially of those that believe," not "only those that believe." God is the Savior of those who believe in a special way, but that does not exclude those who do not believe.

 

[pinoybaptist]

by Bob Ryan

The answer is in Romans 4 "God counts those things that do not yet exist as though they are already".........God is not bounded by time as you and I are. But that does not mean He cancels time."

Strange that Bob Ryan of the Adventists (no disrespect, Bob) should be able to grasp the meaning and significance of 1 Peter 1:19-20 and Revelation 13:8b

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you..

Rev. 13:8b (in italics)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[GH]

GH, I'm not sure if you are a Universalist or just a confused Arminian. But your theory comes crashing down with a simple examination of Scripture. Judas a servant who receives mercy? No, a wicked traitor, a thief from the beginning, one whom Satan dominated, one who was fore-ordinated of God to be the traitor, one of whom Christ said, The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Matt.26:24

No mercy - just judgement. Judas went 'to his own place'. Christ spoke of his end, none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.John 17:12. LOST. The son of PERDITION.

In Him

Ian [/QB]

Hi Ian,
Thank you for your response. I believe that the general belief about Judas is based on the traditions of men and the mistranslation/and or interpretation of scripture.

You asked if I was a confused Armenian or a Universalist. I’m more like a Calvinist who has embraced Universalism. But I abhor labels – really. I’m just one who has, by God’s grace come to see the power of the gospel, the Good News to all mankind. And there is one thing that I am not confused about – His finished work on the cross of Calvary.

I believe that God ultimately will not put out of existence those who are lost. God commends His love to us in that He gave His Son Christ Jesus while we were STILL sinners. (Romans 5:8)

Our Lord spoke the parable of the Lost Sheep in order to assure His disciples that God was concerned about the one sheep that had strayed. I believe that there is no line that the sinner crosses that brings him beyond the reach of God. Neither life, nor death, nor destruction, neither a life of sin, or a decaying corpse is any obstacle to Divine Love, which never fails. Rather, they are challenges which our omnipotent, loving God must victoriously conquer or suffer defeat. No death, either first or second, can frustrate His purpose. Study Ephesians 1:9-11, Isaiah 46:8-13.

Have you ever lost anything, Ian? I would venture a guess that the moment it is missing, it takes on an interest and importance to you, which it never had before. Its value increases and you desire it more than ever. Its loss brings a desire to seek the lost object and find it and keep it safe. I believe that God is concerned about the lost; that He is well aware of their condition. I believe that God is able, Ian, and that all things are possible with HIM.

God is love and He promises His affection and concern to the lost. Whom does God love? He undoubtedly loves all. Whom does He say He loves? God loves the world, (John 3:16) and sinners and His enemies, (Romans 5:8, 1 Cor. 15:22-28) and those who are lost. In God's wisdom, in His plan - He has decreed that many will be lost to Him until the end of the ages.

We often give up when things are too hard for us. But it is unthinkable to imagine that God also gives up His "will to have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth?" (1 Tim. 2:4, compare 1 Tim. 4:9-11)

Is God impotent, powerless to cope with those who are destroyed? All that man can do is kill. They cannot recall from death. Is God also limited like we are? Christ proclaimed Himself as the resurrection and the life. Is the Creator unable to make man respond to His unconditional love? He makes all things new – He can do it for nothing is too hard for Him and all things are possible with Him. He can do exceedingly MORE than we could ever ask or imagine. I believe this by faith that has been given to me by His great grace.

MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER JUDGMENT \o/

GH

 

[Ian Major]

ILUVLIGHT said
Then why did Christ have to be sacrificed for man's Salvation?.

You seem to think I'm saying the OT saints were saved by animal sacrifices. Just the opposite: they were saved by Christ's sacrifice. God justified them in view of the coming sacrifice.

There is no other way to have eternal life other than Christ. Abraham's righteousness wasn't good enough.

I also showed you Scripture that specifically said Abraham was JUSTIFIED. Bob Ryan has also given you in subsequent posts clear Scriptural proofs that the OT saints were saved just as we are.

Only Christ can save you and Abraham didn't know Christ.

As Bob points out, Abraham did know Christ.

But let me add to Bob's quote - Gal.3: 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Our faith and his are the same.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Bob Ryan said
Anyone who believes in the total depravity of man - can not look at the list of Heb 11 and say "yet that's it -- that's exactly the behavior we expect of totally depraved sinners".

Bob, I totally agree with the rest of your post, but I'm puzzled what you mean by this. I can only think you think the doctrine of Total Depravity means the elect remain totally depraved after conversion.

No, TD is the teaching that ALL men are born perverted in every aspect of their natures - nothing remains pure as God created it in Adam. This evil nature CANNOT therefore ever agree to repent and believe. God must first change that nature - give a new heart - before man will repent and believe.

After this conversion, the saint has both the new and old natures active in him, but he is the new one; the old is just a remnant.

This is not a precise systematic explanation, but I believe it gives the gist.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

GH said
Our Lord spoke the parable of the Lost Sheep in order to assure His disciples that God was concerned about the one sheep that had strayed. I believe that there is no line that the sinner crosses that brings him beyond the reach of God. Neither life, nor death, nor destruction, neither a life of sin, or a decaying corpse is any obstacle to Divine Love, which never fails. Rather, they are challenges which our omnipotent, loving God must victoriously conquer or suffer defeat. No death, either first or second, can frustrate His purpose. Study Ephesians 1:9-11, Isaiah 46:8-13.

GH, I'm glad you admitted to being a Universalist. It clarifies much in debate when we know where one is coming from. I had some trouble understanding Me2 for a while.

As to the lost sheep, they are just that - SHEEP - and more, HIS sheep. They are not the goats or the wolves. Gehenna is reserved for them.

All rebellion will be brought to an end; some by converting rebels into loyal subjects, the rest by destroying the unrepentant in Gehenna.

God is love and He promises His affection and concern to the lost. Whom does God love? He undoubtedly loves all. Whom does He say He loves? God loves the world, (John 3:16) and sinners and His enemies, (Romans 5:8, 1 Cor. 15:22-28) and those who are lost. In God's wisdom, in His plan - He has decreed that many will be lost to Him until the end of the ages.

God is certainly kind to all His creatures; He has a special love for mankind, not shown to angels; but His love is only saving love to His elect, His sheep. He laid down His life for His sheep; He laid down His life for the Church. Not for reprobates, not for demons.

Is God impotent, powerless to cope with those who are destroyed? All that man can do is kill. They cannot recall from death. Is God also limited like we are? Christ proclaimed Himself as the resurrection and the life. Is the Creator unable to make man respond to His unconditional love? He makes all things new – He can do it for nothing is too hard for Him and all things are possible with Him. He can do exceedingly MORE than we could ever ask or imagine. I believe this by faith that has been given to me by His great grace.

This is very appealing to the flesh - no one really perishes in hell. But it flies in the face of all Christ taught about God's righteous anger - that Satan, his angels and unrepentant mankind are to suffer eternal punishment in Gehenna.

Your reasoning from His love cannot dismiss His plain statements about His holiness and wrath.

In Him

Ian

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ian;

I also showed you Scripture that specifically said Abraham was JUSTIFIED. Bob Ryan has also given you in subsequent posts clear Scriptural proofs that the OT saints were saved just as we are.

Then the writer of Hebrews 9:22 is a liar.

I also showed you Scripture that specifically said Abraham was JUSTIFIED. Bob Ryan has also given you in subsequent posts clear Scriptural proofs that the OT saints were saved just as we are.

Ian: One witness does not prove a matter with scripture and even though you refuse to consider Hebrews 9:22 You ignore your own doctrine. If Abraham was saved then he must have been regenerated . To be made new is a concept that is only in the new testament. Yet Paul didn't say he was regenerated as Calvinist preach. So what you're saying is that Abraham was saved by his own belief or faith. If men could have been saved before Christ then Christ died for nothing at all. He didn't have to be sacrificed. Yes God is not subject to time but Abraham was.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Eric B]

Were the Egyptians provided for? Or was it for only those in the housesholds of Israel? Were the Egyptians then not responsible for their sins?

I wasn't talking universally, but rather according to the analogy (for the Israelites weren't "saved" by the blood of the lambs (Either in the Passover event or any other time), anyway, they were only physically saved. This was o the foreshadowing of hw all would be saved later on. (But if an Egyptian had joined the Israelites, he would have had the same provision anyway, at least according to the later Law))

This is mere playing with words. God receives recompense for the insult done to His honour. Can He hold it in His hand? Can society hold in its hand what the offender pays to them? Of course it is beyond such crass imagery. But the payment, the payer and the payee are crystal clear.

No, all sides do not agree that. We agree man cannot give back to God his lost righteousness, cannot merit peace with Him. But man certainly pays and goes on paying eternally his infinite debt to the infinitely holy God. Man can never pay enough, THAT is why hell is forever. Can you account for eternal punishment otherwise? A mere place of banishment is not what hell is about - it is a place of conscious PUNISHMENT; and of various degrees of punishment. A place of eternal debt and eternal payment on that debt.

Something is either paid, or it's not paid. You can pay some of it, but then it is really still "not" paid. With sins, you seem to be suggesting that people in Hell are paying "some" of it, but simply not all. What does that mean? What is the difference then between paying some and all, as far as eternal torment? (The "eternal" nature of the duration in itself could cancel out the "eternity" of the debt!) There is no such concept, unless you understand this "recompense" to God Him getting enjoyment out of tormenting people. For what other "recompense" would there be?
No, the banishment IS the "punishment", and the torment from their own unredeemed sinful nature (the more evil they did, and/or opportunities they turned down, the more they are tormented), not from God "doing" anything to them, other than sending them there. (after all, "death" is "Separation"). Once again, that is punishment, from not being able to "pay" God AT ALL.

The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."

But you hold all non-elect as being so "fore-ordained". It would have been better for all of them not to have been born.
Actually, this in itself does not specify a particular individual as foreordinated. It's the role that is foreordinated, and any of the hardened, Jews, esecially who had committed the unpardonable sin, could have fit. There is no reason to select a person (before they even did any good or evil) and script them into this evil role.

As to the lost sheep, they are just that - SHEEP - and more, HIS sheep. They are not the goats or the wolves. Gehenna is reserved for them.

That would contradict Christ's statement that Hell was reserved for the devil and his angels. This shows that individual people were not preordained to Hell, and that "wolf" and "goat" was not a preordained state. (all who become sheep once fit the descripion of "goat", at least.)

 

[npetreley]

Whom does God love? He undoubtedly loves all. Whom does He say He loves? God loves the world, (John 3:16)

I love the world, too. I'm not crazy about Britney Spears, though, the neighbor's dogs are way too noisy and my house could use redecorating.

In short, "love the world" does not necessarily means "love everyone who ever lived, lives, or will live in the world". All it has to mean (in the context of John 3:16) is that God loved the world enough to give His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes will not perish.

And before you go for the next tired argument: Who are the "whosoever"? Those who believe. Whether they believe because they are regenerated, or they believe of their own free will is not said anywhere in John 3:16.

 

[The Archangel]

To All:

For a good discussion on the "Love of God," check this book out:

Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God
by D. A. Carson. It is available here:
Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God

This is a great book which puts many aspects of the Love of God into their proper perspectives. It is a must-read for any serious Bible study on God's love.

Blessings

Archangel

 

[Gina B]

Isn't that quite a stretch to try to say he "generally" loved the world and died for the world in general, then try to use it to say he very specifically meant those he chose to make come to him?
The word whosoever in and of itself tells us it means just that. It comes before the word believes. Whosoever can believe, anyone in the world. There are no qualifications as to who is included in the "whosoever", and it doesn't say whosoever God chooses.
Gina

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Gina L:
The word whosoever in and of itself tells us it means just that. It comes before the word believes. Whosoever can believe, anyone in the world. There are no qualifications as to who is included in the "whosoever", and it doesn't say whosoever God chooses.
Gina

Actually, it does say who God chooses, not what man chooses. The "elect" means the "chosen", not the "choosers".

And "whosoever believes" does not MEAN it is possible for anyone to believe of their own choosing. As I have pointed out countless times before, just because the word "whosoever" appears in the phrase "whosoever is 6 feet tall or taller" does not mean you can choose to be 6 feet tall or taller of your own free will.

All "whosoever believes" means is "whosoever believes" or "those who believe". How they believe - whether by free will or by regeneration - is not described anywhere in John 3:16. So neither the Calvinist nor the Arminian can point to John 3:16 as evidence for their position.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Jesus died for His people, and NOTHING can change that.

 

[Gina B]

How do you witness to people when you don't know if Christ died for them or not? What do you say?

Christ died for me, because I was chosen. I'm here to help you figure out if he died for you too."

Gina