If election insures Salvation How and why?

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Pastor Larry;

But that's just hte problem. Judas did not come.

At some time Judas was invited to come along with Christ to follow Him and He did so this statement is wrong.

Man is responsible for his sin, not God.

As long Calvinist say man cannot respond to the gospel because he is totally depraved then calvinist are blaming God for those who can't. You can say God isn't responsible until the cows come home and it still won't change the truth of it. According to the Calvinist view men go to hell because God chose them to, by default.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Pastor Larry;

But that's just hte problem. Judas did not come.

At some time Judas was invited to come along with Christ to follow Him and He did so this statement is wrong.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Southern;

Your whole argument if based on the assumption that Judas was ever a believer which is clearly contradicted by the text of scripture itself:

If judas wasn't a believer then why did he commit suicide. He tried to give back the silver because he realized how wrong his decision was. Then greving over his own actions he ended his life. What more proof do we need that Judas even though he betrayed the Lord did believe in Him. I don't see any of the apostles as true believers until the resurection. Peter Knew who he was but by his actions on the mount of transfiguration. I'd say he was still in confusion. Then he denied the Lord when he realized that they were going to kill Him.
Besides I don't believe anyone was saved by faith until the atonement had been made.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I don't think Peter is addressing "election" in the sense that you are familiar with, but is rather addressing the result of coming to faith in God the Son and How to live life there-in.

Creative to be sure, but if that was what Peter meant, he would have said that. He said "election" because he meant "election." </font>[/QUOTE]How do you know that Peter is telling them what you say he is telling them?

elect, v.t.
1. to choose or select by vote, as for an office: to elect a mayor.
2. to determine in favor of (a method, course of action, etc.).
3. to pick out; choose: First-year students may elect French, Spanish, or German.
4. Theol. (of God) to select for divine mercy or favor, esp. for salvation.
–v.i.
5. to choose or select someone or something, as by voting.
–adj.
6. selected, as for an office, but not yet inducted (usually used in combination following a noun): the governor-elect.
7. select or choice: an elect circle of artists.
8. Theol. chosen by God, esp. for eternal life.
–n.
the elect,9. a person or the persons chosen or worthy to be chosen.
10. Theol. a person or persons chosen by God, esp. for favor or salvation.
SYN.3. See choose.
ANT.1, 2. reject.

There are other possibilities, and the context indicates to open mind that Peter is addressing their faith! Not that they are elected before the foundation of the world.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Bill Wald;

"We must distinguish between poessesion of salvation and assurance of salvation."

I believe we can posses Salvation but the words "assurance of Salvation" aren't in scripture. There are verses that support it but there are many more that refute it. I can only accept the majority of witness.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Wes Outwest]

The only thing about salvation that we can possess is "the promise of salvation to those who believe".

That is what FAITH is all about!

 

[Pastor Larry]

How do you know that Peter is telling them what you say he is telling them?

Becuase that is what he said. If he had wanted to say what you think, he would have used words that meant that. The very definition you listed refutes you

 

[Pastor Larry]

I believe we can posses Salvation but the words "assurance of Salvation" aren't in scripture. There are verses that support it but there are many more that refute it. I can only accept the majority of witness.

The idea of having assurance of salvation is very clear in Scripture. 1 JOhn 5:13 says that we can know that we have eternal life. That is assurance. John wrote for that reason. You should accept all of Scripture, not just the majority of it.

 

[Ray Berrian]

God speaking through the Apostle Paul wants us to know we are saved. Romans 8:16 has always been a source of security for me.

No Christian is going to feel and experience assurance of salvation, if he or she is dabbling in cherished sin.

 

[Southern]

Mike,

If judas wasn't a believer then why did he commit suicide.

There have been many people who have commited suicide but this does not prove they were saved. If you are trying to say that he felt bad about what he did, what does this prove? Do not unbelievers feel bad?

Are you seriously asserting that Judas was a saved man despite the consitant witness of scripture that he wasn't a believer (John 6:64), was also referred to as "unclean" in contrast to the rest of the disciples (John 13:10ff), called the "son of perdition" (Jn. 17:12). Judas was chosen knowing that he was a devil (Jn. 6:70) but in order to fulfill God's plan (Ps. 41:9). The consitant testimony of scripture is that Judas was never saved and chosen for a particular purpose in fulfilling God's plan.

In Christ

 

[billwald]

The "Good News" is that God has resolved the sin problem but this isn't sufficient to exert control over other people, so the church as added, "and all you gots to do is . . . ."

 

[billwald]

In other words, people who feel bound by (religious) obligation hate other people who act as free agents.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by billwald:
In other words, people who feel bound by (religious) obligation hate other people who act as free agents.

A heartfelt AMEN to that!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />How do you know that Peter is telling them what you say he is telling them?

Becuase that is what he said. If he had wanted to say what you think, he would have used words that meant that. The very definition you listed refutes you </font>[/QUOTE]How do you know that is what he said? Were you there to catch his body language, the tone of his voice, the inflections of his speech? I doubt it, so to be so emphatic about what was actually said is the mark of a closed mind.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Southern;

Are you seriously asserting that Judas was a saved man despite the consitant witness of scripture that he wasn't a believer

No I'm not saying he was saved at all, but at the time he was no less a follower of Christ than the rest of the disciples. I believe he committed suicide because he realized his mistake and regretted it then he no doubt felt it was unforgivable and killed himself. None of the disciples were saved by faith at the time because the atonement hadn't been paid.

Even still; yes he could have believed in Christ and that is why he regretted his betrayal.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[GeneMBridges]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Southern;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Are you seriously asserting that Judas was a saved man despite the consitant witness of scripture that he wasn't a believer

No I'm not saying he was saved at all, but at the time he was no less a follower of Christ than the rest of the disciples. I believe he committed suicide because he realized his mistake and regretted it then he no doubt felt it was unforgivable and killed himself. None of the disciples were saved by faith at the time because the atonement hadn't been paid.

</font>[/QUOTE]How were the Old Testament saints saved?

 

[Wes Outwest]

The same way that the new testament saints are saved, the same way that we are saved.

God saves those who have faith in Him

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Gene;
There were no old testament saints. There was believers although they were not saved by there faith. They practiced the Law and the Law could not save them, neither could the blood of animals. This is why Christ came because the Law system wasn't working.
Those that were believers in God were held captive in Abramham's bossom. Where is that? I can only speculate that it was a paradise but other than that I don't know much about it. There's a book called Nicodemus in the new testament Apocrypha that explains, but I don't have that availible to me any longer It is in a book called the "Lost Books of the Bible" which I don't think is to expensive maybe 10.00 20.00 dollars at a book store. I can't say that anything in it is of any any truth but then I'm not the one who took it out of the Bible. The RCC I think did that.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
How do you know that is what he said?

Because I can read. The words say what they say, and he used words with meaning. The meaning of those words used in connection with each other tell us what he meant.

the mark of a closed mind.

Nothing like an open mind to let the birds in.

Seriously, we should be absolutely closed minded about what Scripture teaches. God's revelation is not incorrect, nor is it subject to change. There is no need to be "open minded."

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
How do you know that is what he said?

Because I can read. The words say what they say, and he used words with meaning. The meaning of those words used in connection with each other tell us what he meant.

the mark of a closed mind.

Nothing like an open mind to let the birds in.

Seriously, we should be absolutely closed minded about what Scripture teaches. God's revelation is not incorrect, nor is it subject to change. There is no need to be "open minded." </font>[/QUOTE]Doesn't that conflict with your doctrine of Total depravity? How is man able to do that?

If God elects, and God imputes, and God reveals, why is there such diversity of opinion among God's people on what God says? Unless, of course, you believe that God only reveals the truth to you and other Calvinists...which would, by all rights, totally destroy this BBS and all others like it!