If God doesn't have a future for the Jews as separate from the present Church, why did God bother making the Abrahamic Covenant and thus separating Gentiles from Jews? Why did Jesus need to be Jewish and the seed of Abraham? Why did not the Godhead just skip this completely useless Abrahamic covenant and program and cut to the chase with presenting Jesus to Abraham and the world that then was? It only makes God look like a fool who can't keep His word if He makes a covenant with Abraham and separates him from Gentiles and then later claims that there was no point in this separation and covenant promise of exaltation and distinction of the Jews...
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If God doesn't have a future for the Jews...
- Thread starter Jope
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Why would God totally reject Israel from His sight, when he caused and use their blindness to bring gentiles under Jesus rule, and then will turn again to them?
The Abrahamic covenant was made only with Abraham, Isaac (Genesis 26:2-5) and Jacob (Genesis 27:13-15). It wasn't made with anyone else, That is why the covenant is continually described as being with them (eg. Exodus 2:24). It was a covenant of promise. 'Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ' (Galatians 3:16). Therefore it is written, "And I say to you that many will come from the east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness" (Matthew 8:11-12).
The Abrahamic covenant is a promise of Christ. It is fulfilled in the New Covenant in Christ's blood. Many Jews have been saved over the years by trusting in the blood of Christ, and many more may well be, but they will be saved in exactly the same way as everybody else. There is only one people of God (John 10:16; Galatians 3:7-9, 28-29).
I think that we all agree with that, its just the question of Paul seems to be stating that God used the hardness of Israel to bring gentiles into salvation fold, and that once done with that, turn back to israel...
If that is the case, it's going to happen and there's nothing I can do to stop it even if I want to, which I don't.
I sometimes like to think of God having a calendar or diary. On that calendar there is a date ringed round and marked 'Return of Christ. Day of Judgement.' But who knows if there is not another day ringed round and marked 'Send revival to Israel'? It certainly need it. Most Israelis I have met are atheists and Tel Aviv is well-known as the homosexual capital of the Levant.
Who would have thought in 1950, when the Christian missionaries were kicked out of China, that the greatest revival ever seen would happen in that country? Whoever thought that thousands of Moslems would be coming to Christ in the Middle East and Iran today? Why should not the same thing happen in Israel, Britain or the USA?
We should be optimistic about the prospects for the Gospel and be praying for its progress and supporting it with our funds.
But when Christ returns, the Day of Grace will be over. There will be no more opportunity for Jews or anyone else to be saved. Once the door of the Ark was shut, no one else could get on board (Genesis 7:16; cf. Matthew 25:10-12; Luke 13:25-27etc.).
You're missing my point. Here's what I asked: "If God doesn't have a future for the Jews as separate from the present Church, why did God bother making the Abrahamic Covenant and thus separating Gentiles from Jews?" You haven't answered my OP. Do you realize this or do you actually think you've given a satisfactory response?
Well I actually do think I've given a satisfactory response.
But you may have a little more if you like.As I assume you've realised, I don't think the Jews do have a future 'as separate from the present Church.' The two have been made one; the middle wall of separation has been broken down; there is one flock with one shepherd and neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female but all are one in Christ Jesus, with God saying, 'Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance' (Isaiah 19:25).
The covenant with Abraham is the promise of the coming Seed. The purpose of God through history has been to make a people for Himself. This He did, starting with Abraham. The purpose of Israel as a nation was to bring the Messiah into a people that had at least an outward knowledge of Jehovah. But right from the start there was a greater purpose: 'And in you [Abraham] all the families of the earth shall be blessed' (Genesis 12:3). This is confirmed, of course, in the NT: 'For the promise that he [Abraham] should be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his Seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith' (Romans 4:13). Therefore the covenant with Abraham always had the New Covenant in mind and is fulfilled in Christ, not in Israel.
Well I actually do think I've given a satisfactory response.
As I assume you've realised, I don't think the Jews do have a future 'as separate from the present Church.' The two have been made one; the middle wall of separation has been broken down; there is one flock with one shepherd and neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female but all are one in Christ Jesus, with God saying, 'Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance' (Isaiah 19:25).
The covenant with Abraham is the promise of the coming Seed.
Afternoon, Martin.
It seems very arbitrary and random of God to make a wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles and then claim there was no reason for this separation when the seed came. It also seems very foolish and bizarre to find out that the Abrahamic covenant was in fact all a big lie and He won't fulfill the covenant for the Jews in exalting them over the Gentiles. This is what covenant theology teaches and this is what dispensational theology abhors.
What about the sons of God in Genesis 6? What about Noah's righteous son? God can easily make a people for Himself without making a wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles, just like He is doing today. The question still remains, why did He make this covenant containing this wall of separation exalting the Jews above the Gentiles?
Why bother making the Abrahamic covenant if there really is no purpose in the separation between Jews and Gentiles and this separation will never be realized again?
I think it would be sufficient just to remind you of Romans 11:33-36. With much respect, who are you to pit your puny human intelligence against the Lord and tell Him that he has to do things your way? And who are you to say that the wall of separation still exists when the Holy Spirit clearly says it has been broken down (Ephesians 2:14).
Perhaps you missed what I said about the purpose of God in raising up Israel. I wrote, "The purpose of Israel as a nation was to bring the Messiah into a people that had at least an outward knowledge of Jehovah." It was in the purpose of God that the prophesies concerning the Christ should be known, also His human descent from Abraham and David. To accomplish that, it was necessary for the Lord Jesus to be born into Israel. But that purpose has been achieved, and the mystery of God's greater purpose has now been revealed: '.....Which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by His Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets; that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the Gospel' (Ephesians 3:5-6).
If you would like me to expand on this a little further, I can certainly do so, but not right now because it's supper-time in Britain.
uhh, your theologians teach that God can't lie. I am teaching that God can't lie. This isn't my way. It's God's way (Titus 1:2). Do you believe that God can lie?
When did I ever say that the wall of separation still exists today?
Whether or not Christ was born to Abraham's line doesn't matter if his covenant gets cancelled and there was really no point in separating the Jews from the Gentiles. The covenant was a complete waste of time and God shouldn't have made it if He couldn't keep His promises. That would make Him a liar. Are you aware that covenant theology teaches that the separation between Jews and Gentiles is forever cancelled? Are you aware that the Abrahamic covenant makes the Jews distinct for the kingdom? How does a covenant theologian interpret Zechariah 8:23 I wonder, with Paul's teaching that the Jews and Gentiles are on equal footing in Christ? Zechariah 8:23 clearly teaches a distinction and unequal footing between Jews and Gentiles for the kingdom!
Zechariah 8:23 NET
The Lord who rules over all says, ‘In those days ten people from all languages and nations will grasp hold of—indeed, grab—the robe of one Jew and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.
The Lord who rules over all says, ‘In those days ten people from all languages and nations will grasp hold of—indeed, grab—the robe of one Jew and say, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.
Titus 1:2-3. 'In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the command of God our Saviour.' God's promise has already been manifested! It is the Lord Jesus Christ. 'For all the promises of God in Him are yes and in Him Amen to the glory of God through us' (2 Cor. 1:20). In Him the promises made to Abraham are fulfilled. Read Galatians 3:16! There is no question of the Abrahamic covenant being broken or abrogated. It was all about Christ! All of Scripture is all about Christ (John 5:39). It's not about the Jews; it's about Jesus, and until you get that, all your theology is going to be off-beam.
OK. So you believe that God broke down the wall of separation just so that He could build it up again. Got it.When did I ever say that the wall of separation still exists today?
The Abrahamic Covenant did not separate Gentiles from Jews.
Genesis 12 teaches that it does.
"I will bless those who bless you, but the one who treats you lightly I must curse, and all the families of the earth will bless one another by your name" (Gen 12:3, NET).
The covenant was not made to anyone else. I'm sure other people were blessed and cursed back then too. Why does God make Jesus the descendant of Abraham? Why not just make Jesus the descendant of Shem?
Genesis 17:7 says that God will be Abraham and his descendants' God.
The covenant with Abraham was not about the Jews; it was about Christ (John 8:56; Galatians 3:7)
It's not C.T. that teaches it; the Bible teaches it as I have shown..
Nope. One flock, one Shepherd (John 10:16). I can go into this in a lot more detail if you want, but really, that should be enough for you.
So you admit that Paul teaches that Jews and Gentiles are 'on equal footing' in Christ? Do you think he has it wrong and that his letters shouldn't be in the Bible?
Zechariah 8:20-23 is a precious prophecy of the New Covenant. The Jerusalem of v.22 is the New Jerusalem, or the 'Jerusalem above' of Galatians 4:26. The 'Jew' of v.23 must be interpreted in the light of Romans 2:28-29 and Philippians 3:3. This is what's going on in China, Africa and parts of the Middle East and India right now! Communists, atheists, Hindus and Moslems are seeking Christ and looking to find someone who can teach them. The trouble is that there's so much religious junk out there that they have trouble finding anybody that can tell them the true Gospel.
"Do you not say, 'There are still four months and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest" (John 4:35). Don't waste your life waiting for some mythical event in the future. Look at what amazing things God is doing throughout the world, support it, and get praying that God will do something equally wonderful in America, Britain- yes, and Israel.
I have yet to meet a covenantalist who is actually informed about dispensational theology.
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Jope said:
Martin Marprelate said:
So why don't you help me out in my ignorance and answer my question?
[/QUOTE]So why don't you help me out in my ignorance and answer my question?
Some premill dispensationalists teach that there is no mosaic law and covenant and even abrahamic covenant (historic premills do this: inadvertently or not) in the kingdom and have deleted a lot of Jewishness out of the kingdom. Most teach that the mosaic and abrahamic are reinstituted in the kingdom though. Theonomists, who are mostly postmillennial, have the right interpretation of Matthew 5:17-18, that the mosaic law and covenant have to be fulfilled before the new heaven and new earth, but they just differ with pretrib dispensational premillennialists on their placement of the millennium and their ecclesiology.
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Thank you. Now would you like to answer my question, please? You wrote: 'How does a covenant theologian interpret Zechariah 8:23 I wonder, with Paul's teaching that the Jews and Gentiles are on equal footing in Christ?'
I would like to know if you believe that Paul teaches that Jews and Gentiles are on equal footing in Christ, which is what you appear to be saying, and if so, whether you think he's right. I look forward to receiving your answer.
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