If God only sees Jesus...

[James_Newman]

And this passage proves what...?

That those who eschew evil are called righteous by God. This is not Christ's imputed righteousness, this is practical righteousness being worked out in the believer. Isn't that what you wanted?

 

[Amy.G]

That those who eschew evil are called righteous by God. This is not Christ's imputed righteousness, this is practical righteousness being worked out in the believer. Isn't that what you wanted?

So by merely doing good works you're righteous? Unbelievers on the fast track to hell can do good works. That doesn't make them righteous, except in their own eyes.

There is only one way to be righteous. That is through Christ.

 

[James_Newman]

There is only one righteousness that will save a person from the eternal penalty of sin, that much is true. But now tell me why God will give me less reward than another man when all he sees is Christ's imputed righteousness.

 

[Amy.G]

There is only one righteousness that will save a person from the eternal penalty of sin, that much is true. But now tell me why God will give me less reward than another man when all he sees is Christ's imputed righteousness.

There is only one righteousness (or the righteousness of One) that will save a person from the penalty of sin, period. The wages of sin is death (eternal). The Bible never says that the wages of sin is temporary death.

God sees the imputed righteousness of Christ in regards to the penalty of sin. The believer will not receive the penalty of his sin because it has already been paid for by Christ.

Rewards are a different subject. I will use my own father as an example. My dad passed away at the age of 75. He was an unbeliever all but three weeks before he died. He accepted Christ on his deathbed. He passed from death (eternal) to life (eternal) at the moment of his salvation. But in 3 weeks, he was too sick to do any works for the Lord. Sadly, and I don't like to think about it, but he will receive very little, if any rewards. And the Bible doesn't say what the rewards are specifically. We can only imagine how many wonderful things God has planned for us. But, even tho my dad may not receive a reward, he will receive eternal life and will not have to take the penalty for his sins, because Christ took the punishment for him. He will be in heaven, not hell. For that I am grateful to the Lord for His mercy and faithfulness to my prayers.

 

[TCGreek]

That those who eschew evil are called righteous by God. This is not Christ's imputed righteousness, this is practical righteousness being worked out in the believer. Isn't that what you wanted?

1. I Cor 1:30 says, "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption"( 1 Cor 1:30, ESV). My sanctification, which is worked out in the life of every believer, Christ also became that through His perfect righteousness.

2. So Paul would say, "No longer I live but Christ lives in me" (Gal 2:20). In another place, Paul says, "God is at work in us to will and to do according to his good pleasure (Phil 2:13).

3. I have no righteousness of my own: I was saved by grace through faith and I am sustained by God's grace.

4. Hear Paul again: "and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— ( Phil 3:9-10, ESV).

5. If you think God is seeking your own righteous as a believer, go ahead. But as for me, my total dependence is on God's righteousness from the beginning to the end--salvation, sanctification and glorification.

 

[James_Newman]

There is only one righteousness (or the righteousness of One) that will save a person from the penalty of sin, period. The wages of sin is death (eternal). The Bible never says that the wages of sin is temporary death.

God sees the imputed righteousness of Christ in regards to the penalty of sin. The believer will not receive the penalty of his sin because it has already been paid for by Christ.

Rewards are a different subject. I will use my own father as an example. My dad passed away at the age of 75. He was an unbeliever all but three weeks before he died. He accepted Christ on his deathbed. He passed from death (eternal) to life (eternal) at the moment of his salvation. But in 3 weeks, he was too sick to do any works for the Lord. Sadly, and I don't like to think about it, but he will receive very little, if any rewards. And the Bible doesn't say what the rewards are specifically. We can only imagine how many wonderful things God has planned for us. But, even tho my dad may not receive a reward, he will receive eternal life and will not have to take the penalty for his sins, because Christ took the punishment for him. He will be in heaven, not hell. For that I am grateful to the Lord for His mercy and faithfulness to my prayers.

Rewards are a different subject. So why is it that when we talk about rewards, everyone points to the cross and Christ's imputed righteousness? But rewards can be positive or negative. The bible is explicit in the fact that we will be rewarded for our works whether they are good or bad.

 

[Amy.G]

Rewards are a different subject. So why is it that when we talk about rewards, everyone points to the cross and Christ's imputed righteousness? But rewards can be positive or negative. The bible is explicit in the fact that we will be rewarded for our works whether they are good or bad.

I've never heard of being rewarded for doing something bad. The would be called punishment not rewards. You can lose what God has planned for those who are obedient.

 

[James_Newman]

1. I Cor 1:30 says, "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption"( 1 Cor 1:30, ESV). My sanctification, which is worked out in the life of every believer, Christ also became that through His perfect righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Does every believer abstain from fornication?

2. So Paul would say, "No longer I live but Christ lives in me" (Gal 2:20). In another place, Paul says, "God is at work in us to will and to do according to his good pleasure (Phil 2:13).

3. I have no righteousness of my own: I was saved by grace through faith and I am sustained by God's grace.

Never said 'your own righteousness' but Christ's righteousness working in you is not Christ's imputed righteousness. We do not get rewarded for Christ dying on the cross. We do get rewarded if we suffer likewise for Him.

4. Hear Paul again: "and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— ( Phil 3:9-10, ESV).

It is all through faith. But some have a strange mystical understanding of faith. Faith is not a magic substance. Faith is believing God's word.

5. If you think God is seeking your own righteous as a believer, go ahead. But as for me, my total dependence is on God's righteousness from the beginning to the end--salvation, sanctification and glorification.

God is seeking for us to believe Him and to allow faith to work in us. But faith does not automatically produce works, and the faith that saves us in eternity does not even require any works. It merely requires you to believe that Christ did the work for you.

 

[James_Newman]

I've never heard of being rewarded for doing something bad. The would be called punishment not rewards. You can lose what God has planned for those who are obedient.

Sometimes the reward is punishment.

2 Timothy 4:14
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Revelation 2:22-23
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

 

[Rufus_1611]

I've never heard of being rewarded for doing something bad. The would be called punishment not rewards. You can lose what God has planned for those who are obedient.

"And when they were gone out of the city, and not yet far off, Joseph said unto his steward, Up, follow after the men; and when thou dost overtake them, say unto them, Wherefore have ye rewarded evil for good?" - Genesis 44:4

"And he said to David, Thou art more righteous than I: for thou hast rewarded me good, whereas I have rewarded thee evil." - 1 Samuel 24:17

"And I am this day weak, though anointed king; and these men the sons of Zeruiah be too hard for me: the LORD shall reward the doer of evil according to his wickedness." - 2 Samuel 3:39

"If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy: )" - Psalm 7:4

"They rewarded me evil for good to the spoiling of my soul." - Psalm 35:12

"He shall reward evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth." - Psalm 54:5

"Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked." - Psalm 91:8

"The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors." - Proverbs 26:10

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." - Matthew 6:5

"Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:" - 2 Timothy 4:14​

 

[TCGreek]

1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Does every believer abstain from fornication?

Never said 'your own righteousness' but Christ's righteousness working in you is not Christ's imputed righteousness. We do not get rewarded for Christ dying on the cross. We do get rewarded if we suffer likewise for Him.

It is all through faith. But some have a strange mystical understanding of faith. Faith is not a magic substance. Faith is believing God's word.

God is seeking for us to believe Him and to allow faith to work in us. But faith does not automatically produce works, and the faith that saves us in eternity does not even require any works. It merely requires you to believe that Christ did the work for you.

1. One of the problems I find with readers of the Scriptures, is their failure to respect the tensions of Scripture.

2. Paul says that Christ became our Sanctification, yet in another place it is our responsibility to work that out. I respect the tension of Scripture and say: Christ became my sanctification but he wants me to work it out with the grace that he provides me, so in the end Christ gets all the credit.

3. If you want to claim your own righteousness go ahead, as for me, I claim Christ as my practical righteousness, even my sanctification.

4. I respect the tensions I see in Scripture.

 

[J. Jump]

I've never heard of being rewarded for doing something bad.

That's because 21st century vernacular once again has skewed Biblical words.

Rewards are not necessarily positive in nature. But when you say rewards "today" it always has a positive usage. That hasn't always been the case.

 

[Amy.G]

Sometimes the reward is punishment.

2 Timothy 4:14
14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Revelation 2:22-23
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

The NASB says it this way:

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.
apodidōmi ä-po-dē'-dō-mē pay, give, render, reward, sell, yield, misc

 

[J. Jump]

Paul says that Christ became our Sanctification, yet in another place it is our responsibility to work that out. I respect the tension of Scripture and say: Christ became my sanctification but he wants me to work it out with the grace that he provides me, so in the end Christ gets all the credit.

That's just it TCGreek . . . there is no tension when we understand what is being talked about.

Christ gets ALL the credit because it is God Himself that is carrying out the work that He requires of us. But God credits our account as if we did it ourselves. That's what grace is.

God does for us what He requires of us and gives us credit as if we did it ourselves.

So when we talk about righteousness we are talking in the manner of what Christ has done in and through us but has given us credit for it.

We didn't do it and we don't "deserve" the credit, but He gives it to us none the less.

So when people accuse of believing in our "own" works they simply are mistaken. We don't believe in "our" works because "our" works are as filthy rags.

But the works done through us by the Spirit are also "our" works because of God's grace.

I don't think that puts tension on Scripture at all. I think that merely shows an understanding of the way God laid matters out.

 

[James_Newman]

1. One of the problems I find with readers of the Scriptures, is their failure to respect the tensions of Scripture.

There is a lot less tension in scripture than you think.

2. Paul says that Christ became our Sanctification, yet in another place it is our responsibility to work that out. I respect the tension of Scripture and say: Christ became my sanctification but he wants me to work it out with the grace that he provides me, so in the end Christ gets all the credit.

And when a believer fails of the grace of God, who gets the blame? Of course that man was never saved to begin with, because Christ only saves those who save themselves.

3. If you want to claim your own righteousness go ahead, as for me, I claim Christ as my practical righteousness, even my sanctification.

And you should, just be sure you put Him on as your practical righteousness. Why is it that if you do something good, it is Christ's righteousness, but if I do something good, it is my own?

4. I respect the tensions I see in Scripture.

 

[TCGreek]

That's just it TCGreek . . . there is no tension when we understand what is being talked about.

1. "No longer I live but Christ lives in me," yet I sin. How can you tell me this is not a tension in Scripture?

2. How is it Christian became my sanctification, but I must work it out? How is that not a tension?

3. How can you tell me that this is not a tension?

 

[James_Newman]

The NASB says it this way:

2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.
apodidōmi ä-po-dē'-dō-mē pay, give, render, reward, sell, yield, misc

It's the same thing. God has promised to pay you for your service, even though you are an unprofitable servant.

John 4:36
36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.


Luke 23:41
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Everyone gets the reward due them.

Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;

 

[J. Jump]

1. "No longer I live but Christ lives in me," yet I sin. How can you tell me this is not a tension in Scripture?

Because when you realize you have two entities that are at work in you it makes perfect sense. Again when Christ lives in you then you are dying to self. But when you allow self to rule the moment you sin and it is not Christ that is living in you.

That's not tension that's just understanding how God has laid the matter out. You can either let the Spirit control you which is Christ living in you or you can let self continue to rule in you and that is not Christ living in you.

2. How is it Christian became my sanctification, but I must work it out? How is that not a tension?

See my above post. If that doesn't explain it for you then I guess you will just have to continue to call it a tension, but for me there is no tension there. God does not desire tension, but understanding. And anything that we see as a tension means we have not come to the full understanding of the text, because God doesn't put tension in His Word as far as I can tell.

 

[TCGreek]

Because when you realize you have two entities that are at work in you it makes perfect sense. Again when Christ lives in you then you are dying to self. But when you allow self to rule the moment you sin and it is not Christ that is living in you.

That's not tension that's just understanding how God has laid the matter out. You can either let the Spirit control you which is Christ living in you or you can let self continue to rule in you and that is not Christ living in you.


See my above post. If that doesn't explain it for you then I guess you will just have to continue to call it a tension, but for me there is no tension there. God does not desire tension, but understanding. And anything that we see as a tension means we have not come to the full understanding of the text, because God doesn't put tension in His Word as far as I can tell.

1. To say that Scripture has no tension is a path I am not willing to take.

2. Scholars and commentators who are more knowledgeable than I continue to observe and respect the tensions of Scripture.

3. "Because God doesn't put tension in His Word" no wonder we have so many false teachings and cults.

4. Who wrote the book of Acts? Luke or the Spirit? 100% Luke or 100% Spirit? Which?

 

[James_Newman]

1. To say that Scripture has no tension is a path I am not willing to take.

2. Scholars and commentators who are more knowledgeable than I continue to observe and respect the tensions of Scripture.

3. "Because God doesn't put tension in His Word" no wonder we have so many false teachings and cults.

4. Who wrote the book of Acts? Luke or the Spirit? 100% Luke or 100% Spirit? Which?

I wouldn't go so far as say there is no tension. Is God three or is He one? There is tension in the trinity. But there should be no tension between grace and works.