If I think it is a sin?

[Darrell C]

I was referring to if the Bible does not prohibit any style of worship, neither should we be!

I would have to disagree. There are forms of worship not explicitly forbidden in Scripture but we base our view on the singular command that only God is to be worshipped. When worship steps away from the worship of the One True God then we speak up.

That would actually make a good thread: Worship Styles to Avoid.

How about those who worship their yards? Their vehicles? Their children? Their pets?

"Can't go to church this morning, I need to wash my car/mow my lawn/take my kid to soccer."

How about Pastor worship?

How about church band worship?

Worship of music?

Maybe I am overthinking worship. "Worship" is something I would define as "A practice we perform towards something we are devoted to above anything else." Our actions have an underlying motive, and what we do is a result of the underlying motive.

To take it back to the topic of the OP, if we think something is wrong and do it anyway, then we are sinning against our conscience. Our conscience is a result of what we believe. What we believe is a result of what we are exposed to. And if we can violate our conscience in regard to what we believe, we have to ask ourselves—do we really believe?

Peter was torn in his heart concerning his betrayal of Christ. He went away weeping because he had violated his conscience. He believed, yet he didn't believe. He had been given divine revelation that Jesus truly was the Messiah, and that He was the Son of God, but when it came to losing his own life—he denied he even knew Christ.

Peter's "worship" of Christ fell into a category of what I would call the natural condition. He had not yet had the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel through the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, and his "worship" of Christ was more an intellectual assent rather than worship based on The Faith that he had not yet received (Galatians 3:23-26). How many of us have precisely that same manner of "worship" as we begin to grow in the knowledge of Christ and have The Faith which we have received being strengthened? How many of us have a head knowledge that has not yet made it to our hearts?

I would suggest it is the head knowledge where we will find ourselves tempted to "worship" improperly. Intellectually. Because it has not yet become a heart knowledge we are more prone and apt to violate that knowledge. But when it becomes a heart knowledge we are less prone to violate it.

And that's just the growth process I believe we go through as we grow in Christ. Analogous to this might be the warnings that those of us older than the younger generations were taught as kids: "Stay away from strangers. Drugs are bad. Look both ways before you cross the street."

Those could be viewed as warnings of the natural condition we can accept intellectually, even as small children. But it isn't something that immediately becomes heart knowledge. Children that grow up with an alcoholic parent or parents can have a heart knowledge of that issue that those not exposed to it do not. So too, in our walk with Christ, we are exchanging head knowledge with heart knowledge. Just as when we were saved, we exchanged the head knowledge that there is a God, a Heaven, and a Hell with the heart knowledge that we are sinners without recourse but to plead to the righteous God Who will condemn us for the sin we readily acknowledge is justly punishable of eternal separation.

So can we judge "worship" not explicitly spoken against in Scripture? Yes, and we should. But first—in our own lives.


God bless.

 

[Salty]

My big pet peeve is that these days when people talk about "worship" they are talking about the music ministry of the church.

Music is only a SMALL part of the worship!

and IMH&CO - the worship pastor is the Senior Pastor
the guy that leads the music is the music director.
(and in reality -in many churches - the music director doesent even really lead the music!)

 

[Darrell C]

it is only sinful if it says so in the Bible! The Bible is the only Authority for all true believers in Jesus, and this is our Guide Book.

It is not what we "think" that matters, but what God says in His Infallible Word!

So what you believe to be right, and what you believe to be wrong/sin is only what Scripture states is right and wrong/sin?

Do you think a man should be able to use a girl's bathroom because he thinks he is a woman and God put him in the wrong body?

Nothing in Scripture that addresses that, so you are not supposed to judge?

Here's another example, SBG: the Bible teaches that pure religion is this: to visit the widows and fatherless.

Do you do that?

Is it a regular practice of most Christians?

Do you, or they commit sin because they don't?


God bless.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So what you believe to be right, and what you believe to be wrong/sin is only what Scripture states is right and wrong/sin?

Do you think a man should be able to use a girl's bathroom because he thinks he is a woman and God put him in the wrong body?

Nothing in Scripture that addresses that, so you are not supposed to judge?

Here's another example, SBG: the Bible teaches that pure religion is this: to visit the widows and fatherless.

Do you do that?

Is it a regular practice of most Christians?

Do you, or they commit sin because they don't?


God bless.

Since God Created man and woman, so the issue you raise about bathroms is moot

neither does your argument about visiting widows and fatherless, because the Bible is clear on this, and whatever we do, should be guided by the Bible.

When something is immoral, and not specified in the Bible, like the whole trans thing, we are guided by the same moral Laws that the Lord has in place, for homosexuality, incest, etc, etc

 

[Darrell C]

Since God Created man and woman, so the issue you raise about bathroms is moot

It's not moot, and you prove that by your very statement, SBG.

You are making a judgment about something that is not specifically addressed in Scripture by following the principles and teachings of Scripture.

You said:

it is only sinful if it says so in the Bible!

That is incorrect inlight of you making a determination of a sin that isn't specifically addressed in Scripture.

neither does your argument about visiting widows and fatherless, because the Bible is clear on this, and whatever we do, should be guided by the Bible.

Okay, so the Bible says pure and undefiled religion is this: visit widows and orphans.

Do you do that? Do you do it on a regular basis?

If not, why not?

If not, are you sinning because you don't?

Just answer the question.

When something is immoral, and not specified in the Bible, like the whole trans thing, we are guided by the same moral Laws that the Lord has in place, for homosexuality, incest, etc, etc

I agree. That is the consistent position I have taken.

So when we conclude, based on Biblical Principles, that something that impacts our daily conversation is sin, and we overlook that sin, are we not ourselves sinning?

It would be sin for you to say "It's okay for men to use the women's bathroom," wouldn't it?

Yet Scripture does not forbid it. Nor does it state, "Men, use only the men's bathroom; ladies, use only the ladies bathroom."


God bless.

 

[Salty]

Darrell -
how about this -
"It is a sin to drink soda pop and eat candy"
based I Cor 6:19

 

[JonC]

I believe if you think a thing is a sin then it is a sin to do that thing. The reason is less about the thing you are doing than it is having a rebellious spirit (to do what you believe is wrong).

 

[AustinC]

Darrell -
how about this -
"It is a sin to drink soda pop and eat candy"
based I Cor 6:19

Y'all realize that manna was vanilla ice cream, don't ya? Sweet to the taste and melted before the next day...

 

[JesusFan]

I wouldn’t presume to know what the Lord is looking at beyond what scripture reveals.

There is a story in the OT concerning the Ark of the covenant that hard been captured by the Philistines. It eventually made its way to a Jewish farmer who cared for it until David was made King, at which time he sent for it.

The Ark was loaded on a cart for the trip. At one point, the cart slipped in the mud and the Ark was about to topple into the mud. The two sons of the man reached out, grabbed the Ark and stabilized it on the cart. Their motives were pure. Their hearts were right. They simply wanted to keep the Ark from toppling into the mud.

God struck them dead.

There was only one way given by God to carry the Ark. Priests were to carry it, slipping poles through rings.

It matters to God how we approach Him in worship.

peace to you

Also was the time when King david was dancing before the Lord when ark returned, and while God liked it, many around him taught was "not dignified"

 

[JesusFan]

But He is against drunkenness, and that was the point. And the fact is that most use alcohol to change the state of their mind. I view God to be teaching us that we are to fill our minds with His will. When the mind-state is changed by alcohol, it is not God we are calling upon to lead us, but the opposite—we are yielding the self-control we are supposed to receive as the fruit of God's indwelling presence.

This too is an issue that one has to come to a conclusion about on their own, and God will judge men based on their conclusions. It is a Biblical pattern from the beginning to the end of Scripture that God will judge men based on their response to the revelation He has provided to them, and He will justly judge based on their understanding of it. This is the point that I was trying to make in regards to whether something is a sin for us if we believe it to be sin and we do it anyway. It is violating the conscience wilfully.

I will judge those who get drunk, and feel I have been directed by God to do so. Just as I am to judge those that reject Christ. We are to be able to discern good and evil by reason of use of the Word of God. And if we see someone doing something that brings them into peril and we say and do nothing, then we are guilty of shirking our duties as light in this world. Our primary concern is the eternal destiny of our neighbor (whoever we come into contact with) and we cannot fulfill that duty if we are not ready to openly proclaim their danger.


God bless.

I have NEVER posted that God sees it acceptable to have a Christian drink and get drunk, but still see NO passage stating cannot drink alcohol like for example a glass of wine at dinner!

 

[JesusFan]

I would have to disagree. There are forms of worship not explicitly forbidden in Scripture but we base our view on the singular command that only God is to be worshipped. When worship steps away from the worship of the One True God then we speak up.

That would actually make a good thread: Worship Styles to Avoid.

How about those who worship their yards? Their vehicles? Their children? Their pets?

"Can't go to church this morning, I need to wash my car/mow my lawn/take my kid to soccer."

How about Pastor worship?

How about church band worship?

Worship of music?

Maybe I am overthinking worship. "Worship" is something I would define as "A practice we perform towards something we are devoted to above anything else." Our actions have an underlying motive, and what we do is a result of the underlying motive.

To take it back to the topic of the OP, if we think something is wrong and do it anyway, then we are sinning against our conscience. Our conscience is a result of what we believe. What we believe is a result of what we are exposed to. And if we can violate our conscience in regard to what we believe, we have to ask ourselves—do we really believe?

Peter was torn in his heart concerning his betrayal of Christ. He went away weeping because he had violated his conscience. He believed, yet he didn't believe. He had been given divine revelation that Jesus truly was the Messiah, and that He was the Son of God, but when it came to losing his own life—he denied he even knew Christ.

Peter's "worship" of Christ fell into a category of what I would call the natural condition. He had not yet had the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel through the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, and his "worship" of Christ was more an intellectual assent rather than worship based on The Faith that he had not yet received (Galatians 3:23-26). How many of us have precisely that same manner of "worship" as we begin to grow in the knowledge of Christ and have The Faith which we have received being strengthened? How many of us have a head knowledge that has not yet made it to our hearts?

I would suggest it is the head knowledge where we will find ourselves tempted to "worship" improperly. Intellectually. Because it has not yet become a heart knowledge we are more prone and apt to violate that knowledge. But when it becomes a heart knowledge we are less prone to violate it.

And that's just the growth process I believe we go through as we grow in Christ. Analogous to this might be the warnings that those of us older than the younger generations were taught as kids: "Stay away from strangers. Drugs are bad. Look both ways before you cross the street."

Those could be viewed as warnings of the natural condition we can accept intellectually, even as small children. But it isn't something that immediately becomes heart knowledge. Children that grow up with an alcoholic parent or parents can have a heart knowledge of that issue that those not exposed to it do not. So too, in our walk with Christ, we are exchanging head knowledge with heart knowledge. Just as when we were saved, we exchanged the head knowledge that there is a God, a Heaven, and a Hell with the heart knowledge that we are sinners without recourse but to plead to the righteous God Who will condemn us for the sin we readily acknowledge is justly punishable of eternal separation.

So can we judge "worship" not explicitly spoken against in Scripture? Yes, and we should. But first—in our own lives.


God bless.

The "beat" of the music used in worship to me is not the deciding factor, as its a heart issue, and a church can use old time hymns only, and yet another use contemporary styles and both please God!

 

[Darrell C]

I have NEVER posted that God sees it acceptable to have a Christian drink and get drunk, but still see NO passage stating cannot drink alcohol like for example a glass of wine at dinner!

I never said you did. I simply gave my own views and an example.

Now, where in Scripture do we see a commandment to drink a glass of wine with dinner?

It's not in there, right?

We see alcohol mentioned for sickness and grief, but what we drink with dinner?

So based on what Scripture actually states, and the simple fact that alcohol inebriates, can you judge me if I say you are sinning with that glass of wine because while you might not be getting drunk, you are on the path to inebriation, which is expressly forbidden in Scripture?

Do you see Scripture teaching that because their culture drank wine that it's okay to get a little drunk?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The "beat" of the music used in worship to me is not the deciding factor, as its a heart issue, and a church can use old time hymns only, and yet another use contemporary styles and both please God!

I would agree in part, because I view the message of the worship music to be the deciding factor.

However, as a musician, one thing I know is that musicians are often quite fanatical about their music. Music was a god in my life, and I did in fact offer up worship after a fashion. I put it down altogether when I got saved because I recognized how powerful a presence it was in my life, and how it distracted me from the worship of God.

I have since began playing again, but very little of it is collaboration because I haven't really found others that have as a goal what I do concerning music. Of course, I haven't had time to devote to finding people, lol. I just don't have the time right now.

As far as the beat goes, this too is important. While I won't condemn the modern trend of having a full band on the stage for worship service, I will say that it is not something I approve of if it is loud and obnoxious, lol. For me, worship service is to be a time of quiet reflection and worship of God. Reverent.

And when I walk into a service and the music is hitting me in the chest from a hundred feet away, I am not going to be a part of it.

I've known enough musicians both saved and unsaved to know that music can become an idol. I see some of them have taken their eyes off the Lord because they're too busy with their music. I've seen worship services where the music wasn't really about God, it was about them. Sorry, but that is part and parcel with a lot of musicians.

I've heard Casting Crowns won't play their music at their church, specifically so that it isn't about them. It seems to me that they recognize the danger of distracting people from what should be the focus: God.

But, I will also say, I was saved in a generation that tended to sing the old hymns, and that is what I am used to. Again, I won't condemn modern music and songs, and I hope it will be a means of ministry and growth to those who attend such services. Me, I'll take "It is well with my soul" over modern songs any day.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell -
how about this -
"It is a sin to drink soda pop and eat candy"
based I Cor 6:19

Of course not, for we know it is not what a man puts into his mouth that defileth.



I'm being facetious. Anything that impacts us in a harmful manner could be viewed as sin. But even regular food many buy today is not good for us. I think the many maladies we see today have a direct link to preservatives and chemicals in processed foods, but there are people who cannot afford to buy only unprocessed food or organic products they supposedly don't have to worry about having chemicals.

And there are those of us who simply enjoy having a Totino's pizza once in a while.

But do we eat a lot of fish because we see that in Christ's day? If I could have fresh fish I might be inclined to eat it every day.

I think we all know the things we do that we ourselves would admit we shouldn't when it comes to dietary habits, but I think we also know that what comes out of the mouth still takes precedence over what goes in. Bringing the flesh into submission is going to be a lifelong process in our progressive sanctification. I think most of us will be more aware of the importance of that as we grow in Christ, and as we grow older.

So it might be sin if it's a twelvepack a day and half a bag of mounds funsize candy bars, but to have a soda and some candy once in a while? I don't see it as sin.

I always think of Paul Harvey talking about a woman who's bad habits finally got to her. He talked about her right after I heard a report about a marathon runner (who developed the first energy bar, supposedly) who died at 48 from a heart attack. This woman liked to take a shot of whiskey every day, and eat some chocolate every day, and it finally killed her.

At 111 years of age.

So we can take measures to try to prolong our physical lives, and I think we should be sensible (not that I think I am, lol), but our time here isn't going to be determined by our diets, but by God. I am invincible until that moment in time when He says my time is done. I understand I could shorten that time through sin, just Ananias and Sapphira, and the Corinthian believers, so patterns of sin in my life I know to be against His will are something that I try to work on.

My best advice for a long life is to become useful to God. As long as He has a purpose for my life I will be here. He may decide to call me home despite my being useful, but again, it is His decision. And I'm okay with that.


God bless.

 

[canadyjd]

Also was the time when King david was dancing before the Lord when ark returned, and while God liked it, many around him taught was "not dignified"

Please show me the passage that says God “liked” David’s dancing? I don’t doubt it, I just can’t find it.

peace to you

 

[JesusFan]

I never said you did. I simply gave my own views and an example.

Now, where in Scripture do we see a commandment to drink a glass of wine with dinner?

It's not in there, right?

We see alcohol mentioned for sickness and grief, but what we drink with dinner?

So based on what Scripture actually states, and the simple fact that alcohol inebriates, can you judge me if I say you are sinning with that glass of wine because while you might not be getting drunk, you are on the path to inebriation, which is expressly forbidden in Scripture?

Do you see Scripture teaching that because their culture drank wine that it's okay to get a little drunk?


God bless.

What God has not strictly forbidden is acceptable, but at times we need to not use our freedom in Christ if that meant using it would cause another brother to stumble or fall!

if we were to meet to do lunch, would order my diet pepsi , and not order any alcohol at all!

 

[JesusFan]

I would agree in part, because I view the message of the worship music to be the deciding factor.

However, as a musician, one thing I know is that musicians are often quite fanatical about their music. Music was a god in my life, and I did in fact offer up worship after a fashion. I put it down altogether when I got saved because I recognized how powerful a presence it was in my life, and how it distracted me from the worship of God.

I have since began playing again, but very little of it is collaboration because I haven't really found others that have as a goal what I do concerning music. Of course, I haven't had time to devote to finding people, lol. I just don't have the time right now.

As far as the beat goes, this too is important. While I won't condemn the modern trend of having a full band on the stage for worship service, I will say that it is not something I approve of if it is loud and obnoxious, lol. For me, worship service is to be a time of quiet reflection and worship of God. Reverent.

And when I walk into a service and the music is hitting me in the chest from a hundred feet away, I am not going to be a part of it.

I've known enough musicians both saved and unsaved to know that music can become an idol. I see some of them have taken their eyes off the Lord because they're too busy with their music. I've seen worship services where the music wasn't really about God, it was about them. Sorry, but that is part and parcel with a lot of musicians.

I've heard Casting Crowns won't play their music at their church, specifically so that it isn't about them. It seems to me that they recognize the danger of distracting people from what should be the focus: God.

But, I will also say, I was saved in a generation that tended to sing the old hymns, and that is what I am used to. Again, I won't condemn modern music and songs, and I hope it will be a means of ministry and growth to those who attend such services. Me, I'll take "It is well with my soul" over modern songs any day.


God bless.

I enjoy worshiping the Lord with Bach, with Elvis, with casting Crowns and mercy Me!

 

[JesusFan]

Please show me the passage that says God “liked” David’s dancing? I don’t doubt it, I just can’t find it.

peace to you

2 samuel 6:20-22 David delighted himself in His Lord and danced unto Him, example for us all at times not to stay "dignified"

 

[canadyjd]

2 samuel 6:20-22 David delighted himself in His Lord and danced unto Him, example for us all at times not to stay "dignified"

Sorry, I do not see anything in that passage that says God “liked” David’s dancing, which is what you claimed.

peace to you

 

[JonC]

So based on what Scripture actually states, and the simple fact that alcohol inebriates, can you judge me if I say you are sinning with that glass of wine because while you might not be getting drunk, you are on the path to inebriation, which is expressly forbidden in Scripture?

Do you see Scripture teaching that because their culture drank wine that it's okay to get a little drunk?


God bless.

Yes, you could be considered sinning for condemning another for having a drink with dinner.

There are two reasons. First, this would violate God's command not to judge the servant of Another. Second, while not specific to the passage (Paul assumed the "stronger" and "weaker" brother are drinking wine), Paul tells us not to be the cause of offence as one may drink wine sacrificed to idols while another may see it as idolatry.

The difference here is the one who drinks wine is the "stronger" brother who should refrain from drinking for the conscious of the "weaker" brother.

So in your question there are two at fault - the one condemning the brother for having the glass of wine and the brother having the glass of wine at the expense of his brother.