If it's not the Gospel, what is it??

[steaver]

steaver, Don't forget to respond to my post #4! Thank you!

Okayyy, you believe the OP is malarkey. And I should respond in what way?? It seems you do a lot of complaining but never point out any part which is wrong and give any reason why. You say your not a Calvinist, but sure do get irritated when the doctrine is challenged.

 

[OldRegular]

Okayyy, you believe the OP is malarkey. And I should respond in what way?? It seems you do a lot of complaining but never point out any part which is wrong and give any reason why. You say your not a Calvinist, but sure do get irritated when the doctrine is challenged.

I do not like it when people misrepresent Biblical teaching and If I can I will challenge that misrepresentation.

 

[Iconoclast]

I do not like it when people misrepresent Biblical teaching and If I can I will challenge that misrepresentation.

Yes...the op has done that in such a way that it is clear he does not understand the teaching enough to be able to comment on the real teaching.
Several real sermons were offered to him...but he demonstrates a total inability to interact with them:sleeping_2::sleeping_2::sleeping_2:
Some prefer the land of make believe to real live sermons....

 

[thatbrian]

To deny limited atonement is to deny the Gospel , and that constitutes unbelief ! And it is the Church at Corinth !

No. I disagree with you on that point. Just because someone can't see/comprehend the doctrine does not mean that they are denying the gospel. You're giving Calvinists a bad name with that kind of talk.

Yes. I misspoke. It was Corinth, of course.

 

[thatbrian]

Ok, let me try to understand your belief here, or the experience you are describing...

Thanks for asking questions in order to clearly understand my position. That should happen more around here.


Was this your "born-again" experience? Or did you have a "stubborn/self-sufficient heart" while having been born-again, yet did not have a belief in TULIP yet?

I had, and still do, have some degree of unbelief and some degree of stubbornness as a "believer". We all do. This is what sanctification is all about. A quick read of the NT reveals that Christians are not perfect, and a quick read of the Baptist Board confirms it!


It seems you are connecting the "new creation" with seeing Calvinism as truth. This would then conclude that unless one believes in TULIP one has not been born of God (having been made a new creation)

I was addressing two separate issues, Steve. In the last part of my post I was saying that God does not make robots of people at conversion. He changes them (born again) so that they make new choices. They see where they were once blind, etc. I was referring to salvation in my last paragraph, not TULIP. Having said that, I'll repeat my first paragraph: We are not perfected at the moment of conversion. One area that needs work is our intellect. We need our thinking adjusted. It needs to conform to God's Word, which is a long process. Some of it happens right away, but some bits take a long time. Paul speaks of this in Romans 12.

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. . ."

I believe Paul is referring to a wordly way of thinking/reasoning, and the cure being the renewing of our thought process by scripture.

 

[savedbymercy]

No. I disagree with you on that point. Just because someone can't see/comprehend the doctrine does not mean that they are denying the gospel. You're giving Calvinists a bad name with that kind of talk.

Yes. I misspoke. It was Corinth, of course.

Yeah it does mean that, they don't see it because they are blinded and it is being hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

 

[steaver]

Yes...the op has done that in such a way that it is clear he does not understand the teaching enough to be able to comment on the real teaching.
Several real sermons were offered to him...but he demonstrates a total inability to interact with them:sleeping_2::sleeping_2::sleeping_2:
Some prefer the land of make believe to real live sermons....

Let it be noted that brother Icon, in spite of all his whining and declarations that Steaver has no understanding of Calvinism, has not once pointed out any part of my post which is NOT Calvinism and given a reason why. No not once, only whining and complaining, whining and complaining.

Here is a part brother, tell us why it is not a representation of Calvinism and why it is a wrong headed statement....

Now some of you out here who think you are "believers" may protest. You may say, "well I'm a believer on Jesus Christ and a child of God, but I do not believe in TULIP/Calvinism. With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures as you claim, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God then?"

No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[thatbrian]

Yeah it does mean that, they don't see it because they are blinded and it is being hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that a person who does not hold to limited atonement cannot be a regenerated Christian?

a) If so, that's an extreme position that is not held by any Calvinist I know.

b) If so, I can completely understand why some folks here hate Calvinist/ism. I also see why they keep arguing against a straw man. That straw man is you, it seems.

c) If so, you are saying that I myself was not a believer for 22 of 33 years a Christian (or so I thought. . .)

d) If so, argue with Calvin: “A perfect faith is nowhere to be found, so it follows that all of us are partly unbelievers.” ― John Calvin

 

[savedbymercy]

Let me get this straight. Are you saying that a person who does not hold to limited atonement cannot be a regenerated Christian?

a) If so, that's an extreme position that is not held by any Calvinist I know.

b) If so, I can completely understand why some folks here hate Calvinist/ism. I also see why they keep arguing against a straw man. That straw man is you, it seems.

c) If so, you are saying that I myself was not a believer for 22 of 33 years a Christian (or so I thought. . .)

d) If so, argue with Calvin: “A perfect faith is nowhere to be found, so it follows that all of us are partly unbelievers.” ― John Calvin

I'm saying that the reason why people don't see the Truths of the Gospel, of which limited atonement is one of great importance, is because they are made blind to it and are yet in a experimentally lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4 that is what the scripture says !

 

[thatbrian]

I'm saying that the reason why people don't see the Truths of the Gospel, of which limited atonement is one of great importance, is because they are made blind to it and are yet in a experimentally lost state 2 Cor 4:3-4 that is what the scripture says !

The gospel is both easily understood and eternally complex. One the one hand, a child can understand that Christ died as an atoning sacrifice, and on the other, even angels, "long to look into" it:

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."

As I have more of a chance swaying Bob Ryan of becoming a 5 pointer than I do of convincing you that you are far, far off in your thinking, and doing untold damage to the cause of Christ, I will give you the last word, and I'll step away from the keyboard.

 

[DHK]

Yes...the op has done that in such a way that it is clear he does not understand the teaching enough to be able to comment on the real teaching.
Several real sermons were offered to him...but he demonstrates a total inability to interact with them:sleeping_2::sleeping_2::sleeping_2:
Some prefer the land of make believe to real live sermons....

Notice the typical M.O. of many or most Calvinists. When he is unable to answer the question posed to him he resorts to condescending and derogatory remarks stating "You can't understand Calvinism." A typical claim made by Calvinists.

 

[Iconoclast]

Notice the typical M.O. of many or most Calvinists. When he is unable to answer the question posed to him he resorts to condescending and derogatory remarks stating "You can't understand Calvinism." A typical claim made by Calvinists.

As things are predestined by God we do not live in the realm of hypothetical.
Steaver has been given actual sermon links , and offered thousands of real cal sermons to find fault with....not make believe garbage .

If he finds any such statement in any of the real pastors offered I will gladly respond ...that goes for you also DHK....

fact is.. both of you are clueless. The more you post the clearer it is.:wavey:

 

[savedbymercy]

The gospel is both easily understood and eternally complex. One the one hand, a child can understand that Christ died as an atoning sacrifice, and on the other, even angels, "long to look into" it:

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things."

As I have more of a chance swaying Bob Ryan of becoming a 5 pointer than I do of convincing you that you are far, far off in your thinking, and doing untold damage to the cause of Christ, I will give you the last word, and I'll step away from the keyboard.

One cannot believe be a believer in the Gospel and not believe or see the Gospel, that is ridiculous !

 

[DHK]

As things are predestined by God we do not live in the realm of hypothetical.
Steaver has been given actual sermon links , and offered thousands of real cal sermons to find fault with....not make believe garbage .

If he finds any such statement in any of the real pastors offered I will gladly respond ...that goes for you also DHK....

fact is.. both of you are clueless. The more you post the clearer it is.:wavey:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
--Notice the word "US". There is nothing about the non-elect here.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
--Still speaking to believers, about believers, and nothing else but believers, he speaks what the object of the believers' predestination is--unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ.
--Nothing about the non-elect here.

Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
--The purpose of the predestination of the believer is to be to the praise of the glory of his grace.

There is nothing praiseworthy about the predestination of the non-elect to the Lake of Fire, which is a Calvinist doctrine misconstrewed because of errant definition of the sovereignty of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

predestination is used in a positive way to the calling of and sanctification of the electas they are being conformed to the image of the Son
those in does in revelation 19 had no problem praising God for the righteous judgment of the

unbeliever

 

[DHK]

predestination is used in a positive way to the calling of and sanctification of the electas they are being conformed to the image of the Son
those in does in revelation 19 had no problem praising God for the righteous judgment of the
unbeliever

Revelation 6-19 is the Great Tribulation. The believers will be raptured before then. God's wrath will be poured out upon the world at that time. Comparing Rev.19 to this time and age is comparing apples and oranges. During that time all the world will be in direct rebellion against God, under the authority of the antichrist and the false prophet. You are speaking of a different time and a different age that cannot be compared to this time.

At this time God is calling out a people for Himself (as He did Israel in the OT).
That does not presume that He does not love the non-elect. That presumption is absurd. God loves all people. Otherwise the Great Commission is a lie. The second of the Two Great Commandments is a lie. In effect, if God loves only the elect, we make God a liar.

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

There is nothing praiseworthy about the predestination of the non-elect to the Lake of Fire,

Says who ? Do you have a scripture that says that ?

God's Justice against their sins is Praiseworthy !

Just as it was against pharoah and his army that were God's enemies and His Peoples Ex 15:1-6

Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.


They were Praising God for the deaths of perhaps millions of men, who probably had wives and kids and families, probably good moral men , Yet they were destroyed by God because they Gods enemies and not of His Chosen Elect People !

Now its on you to show a scripture that states as you asserted :

There is nothing praiseworthy about the predestination of the non-elect to the Lake of Fire,

The destruction of the wicked was a Mercy to God's People Ps 136:10-15

10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

 

[DHK]

dhk

Says who ? Do you have a scripture that says that ?

The statement you are replying to is this:
There is nothing praiseworthy about the predestination of the non-elect to the Lake of Fire,

And I will reply quite authoritatively, NO, I don't have any scripture for it, for it is not found in scripture. God is a God of love, fairness, mercy, kindness, etc.
He is not a cruel monster as Calvinism portrays him to be. I stand on the authority of the Word of God when I say that SBM. You haven't provided one scripture to the contrary.

 

[Revmitchell]

dhk



Says who ? Do you have a scripture that says that ?

God's Justice against their sins is Praiseworthy !

Just as it was against pharoah and his army that were God's enemies and His Peoples Ex 15:1-6

Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.


They were Praising God for the deaths of perhaps millions of men, who probably had wives and kids and families, probably good moral men , Yet they were destroyed by God because they Gods enemies and not of His Chosen Elect People !

Now its on you to show a scripture that states as you asserted :



The destruction of the wicked was a Mercy to God's People Ps 136:10-15

10 To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

11 And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

12 With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

13 To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

14 And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

I have never seen a bigger attempt at twisting scripture. This completely ignores the fact that God reached out to Pharaoh. Also those verses are not about God's justice against sin. They are about God's mercy on His people. Those are two completely different things.

As has been said, there is nothing praise worthy about sending someone to hell without a chance of redemption. As the scriptures you posted have noted it is mercy where we find what is praise worthy. There is no mercy in your twisting of scripture and there is no mercy in your false doctrine and misunderstanding of what election is. The very verses you posted defeat your own argument.

 

[savedbymercy]

The statement you are replying to is this:
There is nothing praiseworthy about the predestination of the non-elect to the Lake of Fire,

And I will reply quite authoritatively, NO, I don't have any scripture for it, for it is not found in scripture. God is a God of love, fairness, mercy, kindness, etc.
He is not a cruel monster as Calvinism portrays him to be. I stand on the authority of the Word of God when I say that SBM. You haven't provided one scripture to the contrary.

Then your statement is invalid and not supported by scripture ! Did you understand what I wrote in response to your invalid statement ? Please rehearse back to me what I said !