"If": means, motive, but no action

[npetreley]

Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

I think it goes without saying that God had the means to do mighty works in Tyre, Sidon and Sodom.


It could be argued that God had the motive, at least according to a free-willer's all-inclusive interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9.

9 The Lord is [...] not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here Jesus is saying that IF the mighty works were done in Tyre, Sidon and Sodom, they would have repented.

Yet, clearly, God did not do the mighty works that He says would have brought these places to repentance, and these places perished.

Means and motive, but no action. Why not?

 

[canadyjd]

I think it goes without saying that God had the means to do mighty works in Tyre, Sidon and Sodom.


It could be argued that God had the motive, at least according to a free-willer's all-inclusive interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9.



Here Jesus is saying that IF the mighty works were done in Tyre, Sidon and Sodom, they would have repented.

Yet, clearly, God did not do the mighty works that He says would have brought these places to repentance, and these places perished.

Means and motive, but no action. Why not?

Because 10 righteous men could not be found.

peace to youraying:

 

[npetreley]

Because 10 righteous men could not be found.

peace to youraying:

First, let me add that I don't think this passage is necessarily referring to repentence unto salvation. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. I don't think that's relevant.

Now, to respond to your answer: It addresses a statement in the Bible about Sodom, but not about Tyre and Sidon. Or are you implying that there's a hidden criteria for Tyre and Sidon that we should apply based on what was said about Sodom? God has a rule book somewhere that says "If there are fewer than 10 righteous men in a city, then my will for all men to repent does not apply to the men in that city"? If this is the case, what other exceptions are there? How are we to interpret 2 Peter 3:9? Does it contain the presumption that there are exceptions - that God is not really willing for all men to come to repentence, depending on whether or not a certain regional criteria is met about the general populace in that area?

If there is no such rule, the answer doesn't address the question. If God wills that all men come to repentence, and performing the mighty works would have led these cities to repentence, then why didn't He perform the mighty works?

 

[canadyjd]

The only rules that are in place are God's. He acts according to His own Divine will.

Perhaps when scripture speaks of God desiring all to come to repentence, it means to come of their own will. Since none do, He takes it upon Himself to save the elect, which He has chosen before the foundation of the world.

peace to youraying:

 

[npetreley]

The only rules that are in place are God's. He acts according to His own Divine will.

Perhaps when scripture speaks of God desiring all to come to repentence, it means to come of their own will. Since none do, He takes it upon Himself to save the elect, which He has chosen before the foundation of the world.

peace to youraying:

Well, personally, I would take a slightly different stance. I think 2 Peter 3:9 refers specifically to the elect.

But I'm deliberately asking this from the perspective of those who believe that it refers to all men. If it refers to all men, then why is there a contradiction in God's stated will and His actions? Jesus says in no uncertain terms that "If X, then they would have repented". So if God really does want all men to repent, then why didn't God do X if it would have guaranteed their repentence?

 

[Allan]

He (Jesus) was using them as examples/illistrations that since He was there doing all these wonders that even the most pagan cities would have turned. Why would have? Simple, these could only be done by Jesus and He had to be born at a specific time and place. Jesus was referring to His ministry amoung the Jews and their stiffnecked selves were being more defient than Pagans and THIS is why a prophet woe is annouced upon them. They recieved more truth than the pagan cities and still would not repent and turn though it was their to do so, they resisted and would not.

 

[Allan]

Means and motive, but no action. Why not?

WHo says God took no action toward them to turn. He just did not use Christ to do such. Do you think many today would turn and repent if Jesus was here do those same wonders? He would most likely have said to us, Judah, Jerusalm, and Samerian would have repented If they know what you know (notice I had to change it to what we that they did not, just like what the Jews had that Tyre and the rest did not have). It is an ILLISTRATION.

 

[npetreley]

Yes, it is an illustration. But it is an illustration with no meaning unless what Jesus says is true. The question is, would the people of Tyre, Sidon and Sodom really have repented if the mighty works were done in them? Jesus says they would have repented, so I have to assume they would, and that His statement is 100% true.

Here is the point, reiterated. Free-willers rely heavily on 2 Peter 3:9 to show that God is NOT WILLING that any , without exception, perish, but it is God's will that ALL, without exception, come to repentence. Yet here we have Jesus saying that He COULD have brought these particular people to repentence, yet it is clear from history that He didn't do what was necessary to bring them to repentence.

So my question stands - if it is true that God's will is that all, without exception, come to repentance, and Jesus is saying that these people would have come to repentence if He had done His mighty works there, then why didn't He do His mighty works there?

Obviously, the question is irrelevant to those of us who believe in election, since we do not regard 2 Peter 3:9 as referring to all people without exception, and we accept the fact that God knowingly allows some to perish. But to those who believe 2 Peter 3:9 refers to all people without exception, how do you explain this apparent contradiction? Saying it is an illustration doesn't explain it. Saying it wasn't the right time or place doesn't explain it.


​

 

[Allan]

I did not say it wasn't the right time or right place. However,

I asked; how do you know He didn't reach out to them to change?

The fact is you don't. But what we do know is that THEY would have repented meaning of their own desire.
Another thing we do know is that Jesus equates the Jewish people for not repenting with pagan who did not repent. This DOES illude to that fact some reaching to them from God was done to make this an adiquate equation and pertinent illistration; and demonstrated a person to whom more truth is revealed the more that person is eternally responsible and judged (more severly) than others with less truth revealed. But both will have the truth revealed to a degree that makes them responsible to act.

 

[Rippon]

We do not know that the residents of Tyre and Sidon would have repented of their own desire . In Romans 9:16 it stresses the fact that no one receives God's mercy on account of their own will or desire . Those who are born again are regenerated because it was NOT their will or desire to turn to the Lord on their own -- God alone did the whole work from start to finish . In Luke 16:31 it says that they will not be persuaded , even though one should rise from the dead . James 1:18 is plain in that of HIS own will he brought us forth by the Word of truth . In Matthew 11:25 Jesus thanked His Father for hiding saving truths from some and revealing those same truths to those of His selection because --- it seemed good in His sight .

 

[Allan]

Your right Rippon, Jesus lied when He said "THEY WOULD HAVE REPENTED"

Uh, helloooooo..... God hid it from the Jews to fulfill His plan of bringing the gentiles into the fold. Luke also states that they have (paraphrase here) the [OT] let them hear them... Not that they will not turn but that the scriptures are suffient for their understanding of these things. The whole regeneration arguement you might as well set aside because it has not nor has ever been a proved truth in scripture concerning it being before salvation.

 

[Rippon]

Allan , the Lord hides His saving truths from some today , it did not only occur with respect to the Jews at the the time of His earthly ministry . It is at His discretion as to who He will reveal Himself to . You know from Isaiah that the question was asked as to whom the arm of the Lord is to be revealed ? The Lord opens the minds ( hearts ) of some and leaves the others in their lost estate . The Lord is responsible for distinguishing betwen those of His possession and those who are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction . He has given "us" ( in counterdistinction to those whom He sets aside ) an understanding , that we may know Him who is true .

Acts 13:48 says that " As many as were ordained to eternal life believed . " Let's get the order of priority straight here . The names of the saints are written in the Lamb's Book of Life . Those names were inscribed before the foundation of the world . The others stand condemned . God has the perfect right to do what He deems fit with His own .

 

[Allan]

God foreknew that we would believe. You still did not address the fact THEY WOULD HAVE REPENTED

Where is the verse that says our names were writen in the book of life before the foundation of the world?

 

[Allan]

**:Thump:**

 

[npetreley]

God foreknew that we would believe. You still did not address the fact THEY WOULD HAVE REPENTED

Where is the verse that says our names were writen in the book of life before the foundation of the world?

I think the two of you are getting side-tracked by the issue of whether they would have repented of their own free will or if God would have coupled the mighty works with HIS regeneration in order to bring them to repentence. While I would assert the latter (that the mighty works alone do not bring anyone to repentence, but that God has to open one's eyes and ears, as well), that isn't the point.

The point is that Jesus said that if the mighty works had been done for them, they would have repented. Period. But history shows that God did not do those mighty works, and those people did not repent.

Therefore, it seems to me that 2 Peter 3:9 must mean one or both of the following must be true:

1. God is not willing that any [of the elect] perish, but that all [of the elect] are brought to repentence.

2. God is not willing that any [without exception] perish and wants all [without exception] to repent, but this will is subordinate to a greater purpose. As a result, He will deliberately allow some to not repent and to perish even when He KNOWS He could have brought them to repentence.

Despite the way free-willers mock this concept as being unfair, unjust, and unloving, these texts seem to make it pretty clear that God really does choose to save some and pass over others, according to His good pleasure. He COULD have brought those people to repentence, but He chose not to do so.

 

[thjplgvp]

Npetreley.

“I think it goes without saying that God had the means to do mighty works in Tyre, Sidon and Sodom.”

The mighty works spoken here is the works of Christ and though you might argue that God had the means, the bottom line is that those means had to be exercised within God’s time table (Galatians 4:4). Christ had to come at a particular time in history not just any time. Also you presuppose that ‘none repented’ which is a supposition that cannot be proven.

“It could be argued that God had the motive, at least according to a free-willer's all-inclusive interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9.”

It could be argued but it is not for the motive is clear 1 Peter 3:9 clearly tells us that the coming destruction of this present earth and its solar system is being delayed in hopes that all will repent. My usage of ‘hope’ is implied and not specifically mentioned in the text because it is not God’s will that any should perish. But the fact is people do perish because they have rejected Jesus Christ.

“Here Jesus is saying that IF the mighty works were done in Tyre, Sidon and Sodom, they would have repented.

Yet, clearly, God did not do the mighty works that He says would have brought these places to repentance, and these places perished.”

In your reformed elitism you have asked a question that presupposes God did not do anything to insure that these cities would not fall instead of understanding that God did all he could do in his time table to prevent man from perishing from those cities. To suppose that God just allowed them to die without a witness and without an effort being made to bring them to repentances is foolishness and is a true insult to God’s integrity. There were more prophets and preachers other than the Minor and Major ones (I have 7,000 that have not bent the knee) and God is never without a witness of his great mercy. God’s plan from the beginning was that the whole earth should be filled with the glory of God and that his people should be a blessing to every nation. Your indictment should be laid against Israel and not God, for they failed to take the message of God’s mercy to the ends of the earth (Matthew 21:43). Just like today whole nations are being turned into hell because they have forgotten God, and we, the believers, have failed to deliver the gospel to our world dooming them to an eternity in hell not through election but through slothfulness.

Those mighty works were done by the God/man who wished that none should perish and labored day and night to fill the kingdom. God is not going to do what he has commanded man to do. The owner of the vineyard did not pick his own fruit he hired laborers to do it. Where are you laboring?

thjplgvp

 

[Allan]

It is not a side issue>

whether they would have repented of their own free will

Jesus CLEARLY states >>>THEY WOULD HAVE REPENTED<<<

...or if God would have coupled the mighty works with HIS regeneration in order to bring them to repentence

You are conflagating both a presupposional idea with scriptural text trying to interject your IDEA of salvation. Jesus did not state, say, nor insinuate this in his condemnation of the Jews.

Jesus states if these works had been done there, THEY WOULD HAVE REPENTED.
Notice the subject that repented relates to, "THEY".
Now you must deal with the fact that though God did not grant them repentence, or regenerated them, they still would have repented (this repentence is in the salvic sense in context) even in their dead state.

Did Jesus make a mistake? The answer is NO.

Do we (make a mistake) if we interpose ideas and opinions into what Jesus states as plain fact? The answer, YES.

And FTR I agree with what thjplgvp stated preveously.

 

[Rippon]

Revelation 21:27 : no one will enter heaven whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life .

Revelation 20:15 : into it [ the lake of fire ] were flung any whose names were not to be found in the book of life .

Revelation 17:8 : ... whose names have not been written in the book of life since the foundation of the world ...

Revelation 13:8 : All the inhabitants of the earth will worship it [ the beast ] , all whose names have not been written in the book of life of te lamb , slain since the foundation of the world .

Daniel 12:1 : ... everyone whose name is entered in the book (2) ... some to everlasting life and some to the reproach of etenal abhorrence .


( All passages are from the Revised English Bible )

 

[Allan]

Deleted...

 

[Allan]

Uh... I take it you do not distinquish between book of life and book of Life of the Lamb (Lambs book of Life)

Depending one your answer Rippon will help me understanding who best to look at what you wrote.