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If my pastor is a Calvinist and I'm not, should I change churches?
- Thread starter willowdee
- Start date
Jarthur001
Active Member
I do not agree with your interpretation of what he is saying. We are talking past each other at this point.
Um....isn't that what I already did by stating I didn't believe it to be heresy? I believe what Frogman and stevewm said were both wrong.
Last edited by a moderator:
to will or not to will
:wavey: For the record I wish to say I agree with the freedom of man's will, I only believe that will is bound to act within the bonds of the sin nature until having been regenerated. Then and only then it is possible to believe the gospel message or any part thereof.
I also wish to say that both Calvinism and Arminianism together in one body exists only when hidden, thus denied by one party or the other as the true belief they possess. Thus, fellowship is broken, in real life, real time, thus, the church is not capable of observing the Lord's Supper.
It matters not that I may truly love all the members of this body, when we are not in fellowship, and Calvinists and Arminians are far from fellowship, one teaches salvation of sinners by their choice while yet bound to the sin nature, thus the human will becomes the savior, the other teaches salvation by Grace according to the will and purpose of God. These cannot be in fellowship in time, thus the church which hides these two doctrines or really denies the two are in disfellowship.
bro. Dallas
:wavey: For the record I wish to say I agree with the freedom of man's will, I only believe that will is bound to act within the bonds of the sin nature until having been regenerated. Then and only then it is possible to believe the gospel message or any part thereof.
I also wish to say that both Calvinism and Arminianism together in one body exists only when hidden, thus denied by one party or the other as the true belief they possess. Thus, fellowship is broken, in real life, real time, thus, the church is not capable of observing the Lord's Supper.
It matters not that I may truly love all the members of this body, when we are not in fellowship, and Calvinists and Arminians are far from fellowship, one teaches salvation of sinners by their choice while yet bound to the sin nature, thus the human will becomes the savior, the other teaches salvation by Grace according to the will and purpose of God. These cannot be in fellowship in time, thus the church which hides these two doctrines or really denies the two are in disfellowship.
bro. Dallas
But, since the thread has taken the turn it has, I have the following observation:
Quote from here:
http://www.christianpost.com/articl...nism_on_the_Rise_in_Southern_Baptist_Life.htm
For people like me, who have been Baptists for 20, 30, 40+ years, are we to assume that what we've been taught since we were children was in error? If so, what assurance do we have that this sudden change in doctrinal thought is correct? If that is so, we would therefore need to discard a lifetime of teaching by others who came before, people we trusted to be our spiritual leaders. Are today's spiritual leaders more qualified than those who came before them?
Can you see why I'm confused?
(emphasis added)
Quote from here:
http://www.christianpost.com/articl...nism_on_the_Rise_in_Southern_Baptist_Life.htm
For people like me, who have been Baptists for 20, 30, 40+ years, are we to assume that what we've been taught since we were children was in error? If so, what assurance do we have that this sudden change in doctrinal thought is correct? If that is so, we would therefore need to discard a lifetime of teaching by others who came before, people we trusted to be our spiritual leaders. Are today's spiritual leaders more qualified than those who came before them?
Can you see why I'm confused?
Dear Willowdee,
my prior post was misconstrued to render my thoughts as though I believed one must agree 100% with a pastor or a church. Those were not my thoughts at all. Rather, I meant to say to you that you must determine whether Calvinism is a Biblical doctrine, if it is not then you must decide the way you would react.
Myself, I believe the doctrines of Grace, commonly called Calvinism is both Biblical and historical Baptist belief.
You must decide through your study of Scripture alone, which is true and follow that.
A belief in Arminianism will not prevent eternal life. It will hinder church fellowship where Calvinism is held and taught openly.
bro. Dallas:wavey:
my prior post was misconstrued to render my thoughts as though I believed one must agree 100% with a pastor or a church. Those were not my thoughts at all. Rather, I meant to say to you that you must determine whether Calvinism is a Biblical doctrine, if it is not then you must decide the way you would react.
Myself, I believe the doctrines of Grace, commonly called Calvinism is both Biblical and historical Baptist belief.
You must decide through your study of Scripture alone, which is true and follow that.
A belief in Arminianism will not prevent eternal life. It will hinder church fellowship where Calvinism is held and taught openly.
bro. Dallas:wavey:
I haven't read the thread, so I don't know if this has been said before.willowdee said:
The short answer is yes. Doctrine is a legitimate reason to disassociate with a body of believers.
The long answer is yes, with one caveat. If you are not firmly established in your mind that Calvism is a serious doctrinal error, then maybe you can stick around long enough to research the doctrine and see if that's what you really believe.
Haven't read the responses but....
Is your pastor focusing on Calvinism vs. Arminianism? Is he not willing to preach the Gospel because God will bring them to Him anyway so why bother? Is it such a focus that it's unbearable? Then leave.
Or is it a belief he has that might come up in some teaching/conversation but he's still preaching the Gospel, seeking to reach the lost in the community and teaching God's Word? Then I'd stay.
I think that there is valid arguments on both sides. I do not fault either side as long as they continue to give God His due glory and seek to reach the lost. When speaking to my husband about this (who is like me and leaning more on the Calvin side), he said "There have been very learned men on both sides arguing this same argument for years and they haven't come to the absolute indefutable truth. Do we think WE can?? There's Scripture to support both sides and God's going to have to sort it out for us later." I think he's right on (of course).
If a pastor were to shove it down his congregation's throat, then I'd have a problem. But if he has that belief as his own and he teaches the full counsel of the Word, then I don't see that it can be a problem.
Is your pastor focusing on Calvinism vs. Arminianism? Is he not willing to preach the Gospel because God will bring them to Him anyway so why bother? Is it such a focus that it's unbearable? Then leave.
Or is it a belief he has that might come up in some teaching/conversation but he's still preaching the Gospel, seeking to reach the lost in the community and teaching God's Word? Then I'd stay.
I think that there is valid arguments on both sides. I do not fault either side as long as they continue to give God His due glory and seek to reach the lost. When speaking to my husband about this (who is like me and leaning more on the Calvin side), he said "There have been very learned men on both sides arguing this same argument for years and they haven't come to the absolute indefutable truth. Do we think WE can?? There's Scripture to support both sides and God's going to have to sort it out for us later." I think he's right on (of course).
If a pastor were to shove it down his congregation's throat, then I'd have a problem. But if he has that belief as his own and he teaches the full counsel of the Word, then I don't see that it can be a problem.
Armchair Scholar
New Member
willowdee said:
If the doctrine is adversely affecting your church and your own spiritual growth, such as, you are not being taught a concern or love for those who don't have Christ as their Savior because the pastor is a 5-point Calvinist who has no concern for the lost, then I would consider departing. First, though, maybe you can try to approach the pastor with your concerns and even show him verses that back your concern. If he is not open to hearing you then that (as I have learned in the past concerning another doctrinal issue) is probably a sign that it's best to go elsewhere. I believe that pastors need to be humble and open to learning and discussion, with the Bible open. It's not easy to leave a place you have been part of for a while or where you once felt you should be. Most of all, pray about it a lot and seek God's guidance and wisdom.
mcdirector
Active Member
I believe that Calvinist and non-Calvinists have been worshiping side-by-side for ages. I do not believe that it is necessary to segregate.
I am curious, willowdee, about the statistics you quoted. I know these particlar stats said "recent graduates," but how do we know that past and far past graduates haven't also had similar stats? I'm not curious enough to go digging, but I frankly don't think these numbers can be that far off from historical statistics. If you go digging, you might even find they are low for certain other time periods.
I am curious, willowdee, about the statistics you quoted. I know these particlar stats said "recent graduates," but how do we know that past and far past graduates haven't also had similar stats? I'm not curious enough to go digging, but I frankly don't think these numbers can be that far off from historical statistics. If you go digging, you might even find they are low for certain other time periods.
willowdee said:
Yeah.
Go right ahead and split up with him.
And the next church, make sure that besides being Arminian his idea of worship and song and clothes also line up with yours, and if they don't, then find another one.
And so on, and so on, until you find the church that agrees with you in everything. To a tee.
Pinoybaptist, I apologize. Because this is a Baptist board, I was under the impression I could come here and find brothers and sisters in Christ who would at the very least, understand that this is a sincere spiritual dilemma for me. I love this man, and this is a fundamental difference in our respective interpretations of the gospel. We're not talking about sprinkling vs. dunking here. If I were the type to leave because I don't like or agree with the preacher I would have done so when the other 60% of our membership left. And this would not have been my home church for over 40 years.
Thanks to all who offered helpful, non-sarcastic responses. I will continue to pray and ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance.
In Christ,
Dee
Thanks to all who offered helpful, non-sarcastic responses. I will continue to pray and ask for the Holy Spirit's guidance.
In Christ,
Dee
Now for the humor. Try this.
http://tominthebox.blogspot.com/2007/02/guard-your-thoughts-against-calvinism.html
:laugh:
http://tominthebox.blogspot.com/2007/02/guard-your-thoughts-against-calvinism.html
:laugh:
willowdee said:
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian----but do rather preach the whole council of the Lord---the pure doctrine of God
BUT if I were an average church member and thats all that I ever heard from my pastor
"Calvin said this, Calvin said that!! According to Calvin!! In Calvin's book on page 333 paragraph 2"
If thats all I heard my preacher say Sunday after Sunday after Sunday---it wouldn't take me long to find another church to attend before the next Sunday
Know what I mean????
If your pastor is correct, there's nothing that either of you can do about the situation, since "The decrees of God are his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby, for his own glory, he hath foreordained whatsoever comes to pass." The pastor's belief and your belief and whether or not you will be a member of that church were all scripted before the foundation of the world. So relax.
But, assuming otherwise, I'll just testify that I have always been a rabid anticalvinist, yet I spent years in the midst of a completely Calvinist setting (yep, double predestination and the whole nine yards) and would have no difficulty doing so again with a cheerful heart.
Don't let it get to you. It isn't a life-or-death issue. Bitsy was right when she wrote "Calvinist and non-Calvinists have been worshiping side-by-side for ages." There are some people who make it a test of fellowship, but those of us who don't are happier, as a rule.
But I still think that Calvinism deserves it own forum. :love2:
But, assuming otherwise, I'll just testify that I have always been a rabid anticalvinist, yet I spent years in the midst of a completely Calvinist setting (yep, double predestination and the whole nine yards) and would have no difficulty doing so again with a cheerful heart.
Don't let it get to you. It isn't a life-or-death issue. Bitsy was right when she wrote "Calvinist and non-Calvinists have been worshiping side-by-side for ages." There are some people who make it a test of fellowship, but those of us who don't are happier, as a rule.
But I still think that Calvinism deserves it own forum. :love2:
Tom Butler
New Member
Armchair Scholar said:
I don't want to read more into this comment than you actually meant. At first glance, I took it to mean you equate 5-point-Calvinism with a lack of concern for the lost. Then again, maybe you weren't
I don't know any of those kinds of Calvinists, so I'm assuming you're advising that if anyone has a pastor with no concern for the lost, they should consider leaving.
Wanna clarify?