If my pastor is a Calvinist and I'm not, should I change churches?

[Rippon]

That has been a problem in many Baptist churches in the southeast. But thank God that most pastors are very up front with their theology, both Calvinist and noncalvinist. Anbd we should be able to get along and worship together. I'm a noncalviist and have enjoyed J. Vernon McGeee and many other from their camp and if I recall correctly W. A. Criswell was calvinistic, I don't know if he still held to it at the end or not.

Pardon me if I misunderstood you . However , are you under the impression that JVM was a Calvinist ? He was ordained as a Presbyterian minister but apparently went against his ministerial vows because he was an Anti-Calvinist in his ministry . Yes , he had a down-home folksy style . He was warm and witty -- but he was much closer to the Arminian model of theology .

It bothers me that many 'Presbyterians' go against their ordination vows . They should be honest and inform their flock ( and higher-ups ) that they no longer agree with the Westminster Standards -- and move on . Billy Sunday and Charles Finney are two others who come to mind for this kind of deceit .

 

[Armchair Scholar]

I hope you were not making the (false) equation:

5-point calvinist = no concern for lost sinners.

​

To quote the song, "It ain't necessarily so!" In fact it ain't so at all! Such thinking (no concern for the lost) has, sadly, happened, but it is not calvinism - it is hypercalvinism.
Happy New Year!

From my experience with 5-point Calvinists I have known, they believed that you are elected before you are born to go to heaven or to hell and there is nothing you can do about whichever category you fall into, so there was no point in sending out missionaries or giving the gospel to the unsaved. What good would it have done for them to be concerned for the lost if they believed they couldn't help them, which would have included sharing God's word with them? Besides, I didn't see any of them ever show they were concerned for the lost. You could say these people were hyper-Calvinists then. They were proclaiming 5-pointers. One even said that he knew that God has not elected his daughter to go to heaven and that he had to learn to accept that she was elected to go to hell. What nonsense!

 

[Amy.G]

From my experience with 5-point Calvinists I have known, they believed that you are elected before you are born to go to heaven or to hell and there is nothing you can do about whichever category you fall into, so there was no point in sending out missionaries or giving the gospel to the unsaved. What good would it have done for them to be concerned for the lost if they believed they couldn't help them, which would have included sharing God's word with them? Besides, I didn't see any of them ever show they were concerned for the lost. You could say these people were hyper-Calvinists then. They were proclaiming 5-pointers. One even said that he knew that God has not elected his daughter to go to heaven and that he had to learn to accept that she was elected to go to hell. What nonsense!

Since I've been a member of the BB, I've met quite a few 5 point Calvinists and not one of them doesn't believe and participate in missions or the spread of the gospel. In fact quite the opposite, because the Lord has chosen to bring His sheep to Him through the preaching of the gospel. So to ignore that command is to be disobedient to God.

 

[Armchair Scholar]

I don't want to read more into this comment than you actually meant. At first glance, I took it to mean you equate 5-point-Calvinism with a lack of concern for the lost. Then again, maybe you weren't

I don't know any of those kinds of Calvinists, so I'm assuming you're advising that if anyone has a pastor with no concern for the lost, they should consider leaving.

Wanna clarify?

I can only explain from my own personal experience with those I knew who called themselves 5-point Calvinists. Years ago, one of them stood up in church one evening and told the congregation that because God had "predestined" him for heaven, long before he was even born, that he never had to ask Jesus to save him (even though scripture tells us to ask and believe and call upon the name of the Lord, etc.). God made him realize one day, years before that, that he was "elected for heaven" and that there was nothing he had to do. He was "chosen for heaven" by God and so it was all taken care of for him before he was even born. This man also taught our adult Sunday school class. If someone asks me if I have a problem with this man's theology, I answer "yes." There was also an obvious lack of concern for the lost, among those who believed as this man did, at this church. Some of my family who also attended there at the time began to ask why they should bother to witness to unsaved people because for all they knew, they were going to hell anyhow, and only God knew if they weren't. They felt if it was only God's business who was elected for heaven then why bother sharing the gospel with anyone. I hope this helps clarify.

 

[mcdirector]

Armchair Scholar,

I'm sorry that your experience with 5-point Calvinists have been such as they have. I hope that will change as you interact with the folks on this board.

 

[Armchair Scholar]

Since I've been a member of the BB, I've met quite a few 5 point Calvinists and not one of them doesn't believe and participate in missions or the spread of the gospel. In fact quite the opposite, because the Lord has chosen to bring His sheep to Him through the preaching of the gospel. So to ignore that command is to be disobedient to God.

Amy, let me re-explain that for people like the man I mentioned in my post above this one, there was no need of the gospel for him. He was not saved by the gospel, he was saved by being elected, and how he knew he was elected was through hearing teaching about predestination. After hearing these teachings is when he "just knew" that he had been elected before his birth and that there was no need to believe the gospel. He taught this in our church. So, I ask, what good is the gospel when all you need is what this man believed? That has been my closest, personal experience with hyper-Calvinism, or whatever it is called. He clung to the verses that teach foreknowledge and about the elect, but he would not discuss the verses such as, "whosever will, may come," etc. All he was interested in was being so special to God before he was born that God "chose" him and he did not have to ask for salvation or repent of his sin. Perhaps a lot of people who are Calvinist don't believe as this man did, but I am giving my personal experience. I saw a mess come from what this man was allowed by the pastor to teach. There was not a huge concern for the lost in that church. So, I'm telling of what I experienced at a church that called itself "Calvinist" and "Sovereign Grace."

 

[Armchair Scholar]

Armchair Scholar,

I'm sorry that your experience with 5-point Calvinists have been such as they have. I hope that will change as you interact with the folks on this board.

Thank you, mcdirector. It's just that when I hear the words Calvinist, 5-point, predestination, or Sovereign Grace today I get chills up my spine remembering the bad experiences that my family and I had before we finally left.

 

[Aaron]

. . . and my husband . . .

I'm changing my advice. Ask your husband, and follow his leadership.

 

[Tom Butler]

I can only explain from my own personal experience with those I knew who called themselves 5-point Calvinists. Years ago, one of them stood up in church one evening and told the congregation that because God had "predestined" him for heaven, long before he was even born, that he never had to ask Jesus to save him (even though scripture tells us to ask and believe and call upon the name of the Lord, etc.). God made him realize one day, years before that, that he was "elected for heaven" and that there was nothing he had to do. He was "chosen for heaven" by God and so it was all taken care of for him before he was even born. This man also taught our adult Sunday school class. If someone asks me if I have a problem with this man's theology, I answer "yes." There was also an obvious lack of concern for the lost, among those who believed as this man did, at this church. Some of my family who also attended there at the time began to ask why they should bother to witness to unsaved people because for all they knew, they were going to hell anyhow, and only God knew if they weren't. They felt if it was only God's business who was elected for heaven then why bother sharing the gospel with anyone. I hope this helps clarify.

This man is clueless. And biblically illiterate to boot. Do not look to this man as an example of Calvinism. He ain't one.

 

[mcdirector]

Thank you, mcdirector. It's just that when I hear the words Calvinist, 5-point, predestination, or Sovereign Grace today I get chills up my spine remembering the bad experiences that my family and I had before we finally left.

Many of us have had experiences with the stupid and intolerant at churches that have left us devastated and disgusted. Since I have that t-shirt, I will pray that those chills are replaced by what God would have you do with those lessons.

Having said that, I will tell you that I do not know yet what God would have me do with all the lessons from my disappointments in men but to trust in Him.

 

[Rippon]

WD : I would suggest that you get a book called 'A Journey In Grace' by Richard Belcher . It's a theological novel . Have you heard about that genre before folks ? He has a whole series of books covering a range of theological subjects in novel form . But the accent is on doctrine . Anyway , in 'AJIG' the main character is Ira F. Pointer -- get it people ? Ira is a Calvinist but doesn't really know it at the start of the story . He meets some characters along the way . One of them is an extreme type that Calvinists would not want to be associated with . This guy basically rotates his sermons on the so-called 5 points . Ira is a more balanced Christian than that and thus begins the journey . Can't give away everything here .

 

[pinoybaptist]

From my experience with 5-point Calvinists I have known, they believed that you are elected before you are born to go to heaven or to hell and there is nothing you can do about whichever category you fall into, so there was no point in sending out missionaries or giving the gospel to the unsaved. What good would it have done for them to be concerned for the lost if they believed they couldn't help them, which would have included sharing God's word with them? Besides, I didn't see any of them ever show they were concerned for the lost. You could say these people were hyper-Calvinists then. They were proclaiming 5-pointers. One even said that he knew that God has not elected his daughter to go to heaven and that he had to learn to accept that she was elected to go to hell. What nonsense!

Well, now, here's where I will drive you crazy, as well as maybe willowdee's pastor if she ever mentions this to him.

I believe ALL the elect are born saved. Read Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.

When was the foundation of the world ? Unless you have an extrabiblical answer, I believe Genesis 1:1 gives the answer. That was when time began for the race of Adam.
And before time began, the Scriptures quoted above says that God wrote a book, on where were written the names of His people, covered by the blood of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Funny that the term "before the foundation of the world" should be mentioned twice in the same book and refer to the Lamb of Glory as well as to the Book of Life.

I believe this to be the very foundation of the Savior's referring to His children as "my sheep". They have always, always been His own. He claimed them before time began, He called them by name before time began, He loved them before they loved Him.

However, being saved and being born again are not quite the same. Being saved is your eternal status, being born again is your spiritual condition, and all the elect are born in time from the seed of Adam, fallen, unregenerate, and dead in sin and trespasses until the Spirit gives them life.

Now, here's where willowdee's pastor, and most Calvinists, go nuts.

The blood of Christ is sufficient, meant for, and effective or efficient ONLY for His people because that blood was meant for them, and only for them.

I love you all, and I'm taking cover right now under my bedspread and behind my wife's back.:wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, let me re-explain that for people like the man I mentioned in my post above this one, there was no need of the gospel for him. He was not saved by the gospel, he was saved by being elected, and how he knew he was elected was through hearing teaching about predestination. After hearing these teachings is when he "just knew" that he had been elected before his birth and that there was no need to believe the gospel. He taught this in our church. So, I ask, what good is the gospel when all you need is what this man believed? That has been my closest, personal experience with hyper-Calvinism, or whatever it is called. He clung to the verses that teach foreknowledge and about the elect, but he would not discuss the verses such as, "whosever will, may come," etc. All he was interested in was being so special to God before he was born that God "chose" him and he did not have to ask for salvation or repent of his sin. Perhaps a lot of people who are Calvinist don't believe as this man did, but I am giving my personal experience. I saw a mess come from what this man was allowed by the pastor to teach. There was not a huge concern for the lost in that church. So, I'm telling of what I experienced at a church that called itself "Calvinist" and "Sovereign Grace."

No wonder you don't have any use for Calvinism. That man was just wrong all the way around. It's terrible that he was allowed to teach.

Thanks for explaning.

 

[Amy.G]

I love you all, and I'm taking cover right now under my bedspread and behind my wife's back.:wavey:

Chicken! :laugh:

I see what you're saying and agree with everything except the saved part. I believe we are saved/indwelt at the same time. But are elected to/for salvation before the foundation of the world, and it will come to pass.

 

[Pipedude]

Years ago, one of them stood up in church one evening and told the congregation that because God had "predestined" him for heaven, long before he was even born, that he never had to ask Jesus to save him

There are goofballs in every theological camp. I have the same opinion of them as you do, but we have to learn that great traditions didn't become that way by being made up of goofballs. Therefore, we know before we even investigate that the goofballs must be aberrant, and not normal.

Think of a few great names that fall into the Calvinist category: Martin Luther and C. H. Spurgeon draw pretty good reviews in church history. Most of the foundation of the Southern Baptist Convention was Calvinist. D. James Kennedy and R. C. Sproul have good reputations. (Has anybody accused Kennedy of not being interested in evangelism?) You could add thousands to the list.

I would not recommend Calvinism to anyone; but I can recommend plenty of Calvinists. Do a little more reading and try to fine a good Calvinist nearby whom you can discuss questions with. Hopefully you won't be converted, but you will get a balanced view of just what's going on out there in Predestinaria.

 

[willowdee]

I'm changing my advice. Ask your husband, and follow his leadership.

Aaron, you are absolutely right, and that's what I'm doing. But bless his heart, my husband loves me as the Lord loves him, and what I believe and how I feel are important to him. So we will be staying, at least for the time being. We are both praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit and doing our best to be patient while we absorb that guidance.

Rippon, thanks for the book recommendation. I'll check it out on Amazon.

Armchair Scholar, that person just sounds like an out-and-out nut to me. Yikes!

 

[David Lamb]

From my experience with 5-point Calvinists I have known, they believed that you are elected before you are born to go to heaven or to hell and there is nothing you can do about whichever category you fall into, so there was no point in sending out missionaries or giving the gospel to the unsaved. What good would it have done for them to be concerned for the lost if they believed they couldn't help them, which would have included sharing God's word with them? Besides, I didn't see any of them ever show they were concerned for the lost. You could say these people were hyper-Calvinists then. They were proclaiming 5-pointers. One even said that he knew that God has not elected his daughter to go to heaven and that he had to learn to accept that she was elected to go to hell. What nonsense!

I agree, what nonsense! As far as I know, all of the people espousing calvinistic theology here on the BB agree wholeheartedly with "sending out missionaries and giving the gospel to the unsaved," and none of us (again, as far as I know) would claim to know who the elect are - I certainly don't. It is such a pity that you had those bad experiences from people calling themselves calvinists, but I can assure you they are not representative.

 

[Amy.G]

Here is an observation I have made on the BB.

Many non-cals say that the gospel has gone out to everyone, citing Romans 10:8 as an example. If this is true then we surely do not need to send missionaries who risk their very lives to preach what has already been heard.

But every Calvinist on this board is very pro-missions because it is God's will that the lost be saved through the preaching of the gospel, therefore believe that missions is not only necessary, but commanded by God.

Yet it is the Calvinists that are constantly accused of not believing in missions.

 

[webdog]

Many non-cals say that the gospel has gone out to everyone, citing Romans 10:8 as an example. If this is true then we surely do not need to send missionaries who risk their very lives to preach what has already been heard.

Romans 1 tells us that "Truth" has gone out to everyone.

Have you ever studied the Gospel in the Stars, Amy? Quite fascinating, and really brings Romans 10 into clearer focus.

 

[J.D.]

The revelation of nature does not have power to save. Only the Gospel is the "power of God unto salvation".