If once saved - can again be lost? The Poll

[JonC]

Jon, how would you explain the OT Scripture that tells us when a righteous man turns from his righteousness he will die in his sins and all the good he had done will not be remembered?

That is what Ezekiel 18 explains:

If an unrighteous man turns from unrighteousness God will forgive him

If a righteousness man turns from righteousness God will condemn him.

I think that both are true. A righteous man who abandons righteousness will not be remembered for the good he has done but for the evil.


My argument is regarding salvation. I tend to view being saved (present) as looking to being saved from the wrath to come (future). We either will or we will not. It is impossible to be saved from something yet when that something comes perish from that thing.

If one is righteousness (under the New Covenant) and then rejects Christ I do not believe it is logical to say that he was ever saved from the wrath to come.

One could say he was safe as long as he remained in Christ. But in rejecting Christ he demonstrated that his "heart of stone" remained.


I do believe that the doctrine of eternal security is often abused and misapplied.

The promise in this life is that if you remain in Him, He will remain in you. This remaining in Him is the evidence that you are saved.


We are to constantly test our faith to see that we are numbered among the elect, lest we find we have an unbelieving heart.

 

[Charlie24]

That is what Ezekiel 18 explains:

If an unrighteous man turns from unrighteousness God will forgive him

If a righteousness man turns from righteousness God will condemn him.

I think that both are true. A righteous man who abandons righteousness will not be remembered for the good he has done but for the evil.


My argument is regarding salvation. I tend to view being saved (present) as looking to being saved from the wrath to come (future). We either will or we will not. It is impossible to be saved from something yet when that something comes perish from that thing.

If one is righteousness (under the New Covenant) and then rejects Christ I do not believe it is logical to say that he was ever saved from the wrath to come.

One could say he was safe as long as he remained in Christ. But in rejecting Christ he demonstrated that his "heart of stone" remained.


I do believe that the doctrine of eternal security is often abused and misapplied.

The promise in this life is that if you remain in Him, He will remain in you. This remaining in Him is the evidence that you are saved.


We are to constantly test our faith to see that we are numbered among the elect, lest we find we have an unbelieving heart.

If we just examine ourselves from time to time whether we are in the faith, as Paul said, we have nothing to worry about.

 

[JonC]

If we just examine ourselves from time to time whether we are in the faith, as Paul said, we have nothing to worry about.

Lest, as Paul said, you find you have an unbelieving heart. One cannot look backwards to say "I am saved". One has to look at the present.

I believe in practice we would agree about who will be saved and who will perish.

 

[Charlie24]

Easterner I guess you think I'm crazy and you could be right! I read your post as "lose" and you said "choose."

So my reply had nothing to do with your question.

Could you elaborate a little more on them choosing, I could go different ways with that but I'd rather you clarify that for me.

@easternstar

It's a double whammy on me, not only did I misread your post, it wasn't even sent to me.

So it's confirmed I'm losing it.

 

[easternstar]

Easterner I guess you think I'm crazy and you could be right! I read your post as "lose" and you said "choose."

So my reply had nothing to do with your question.

Could you elaborate a little more on them choosing, I could go different ways with that but I'd rather you clarify that for me.

I meant that if people had the freedom to accept or reject God under the Old Covenant, then under the New Covenant so do we. And once we accept Him, our right to choose is not taken away.

 

[Ascetic X]

A person could be saved as a teenager and express great zeal and sincerity.

But as the years go by, he could drift into sinful self-indulgences, to the point that some might think his conversion was not genuine.

Then, eventually hitting rock bottom, he might return to the faith of his youth, with more vigor and delight than ever.

Alas, after experiencing many blessings, he could become complacent, and gradually slip back into a few bad habits, justifying them by abusing grace, while enjoying the goodness of God and a godly wife.

Happily, he snaps out of it, when he realizes a libertine ministry he was in long ago was a heretical, predatory cult that filled him with false doctrines and false assurances. He scrambles to destroy the corruptions and identify the proper orthodox teachings, but most churches in his locale are apostate, so he must do the work on his own.

He was not saved, then lost his salvation, then got born again again. He was a saved backslider, who was allowed to live long enough to repent and return to his Lord and Rescuer.

 

[sojourner4Christ]

If once saved - can again be lost?​

It's not about "losing" anything. It's about your ever-present free will choice and hence your ever-present option to turn aside.

"Eternal Security" is also known as "once saved always saved," or "perseverance of the saints." In other words, once someone accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is nothing that he or she can do to separate himself/herself from God, and they will always be saved. This is a false doctrine. Dozens of passages show, without any doubt, that those who believe in Christ can fall away if they do not practice righteousness.

Parable of sower:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13), "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away."

Fallen from grace passage:

Galatians 5:4, "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

Pruning passages:

John 15:5-6, "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans, 11:19-23, "You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

Hebrews Passages:

Hebrews 6:4-6, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."
Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."
Hebrews 10:38-39, "Now the just shall live by faith: ; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

Doctrinal Apostasy passages:

Acts 20:17,28-30, "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church...I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
1 Timothy 1:18-21, "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander"
2 Timothy 2:16-18, "But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some."
1 Timothy 4:1, "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"
1 Timothy 6:20-21, "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called knowledge-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."
2 Peter 2:1, "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."
2 Peter 3:17, "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness."
2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

Moral Apostasy passages:

1 Timothy 6:9-10, "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."
2 Peter 2:20-22, "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, A dog returns to its own vomit, and a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
James 5:19-20, "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

Revelation passages:

Revelation 2:4-5, "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."
Revelation 3:5, 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels."
Revelation 3:16-17, "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing, and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked."

Old Testament passages:

Ezekiel 18:24-26, "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."

The fact the Bible exhorts to faithfulness proves one can be lost:

1. be "stedfast, unmoveable" (1 Corinthians 15:58).
2. "For if these things be in you" (2 Peter 1:5-11).
3. "we shall reap, if we faint not" (Galatians 6:9).
4. "be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).
5. practice these things and God will be with you (Philippians 4:9).

Man has a free will:

Joshua 24:15, "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

The Bible clearly prophesied some would fall away:

Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
1 Timothy 4:1, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;"

I meant that if people had the freedom to accept or reject God under the Old Covenant, then under the New Covenant so do we. And once we accept Him, our right to choose is not taken away.

 

[Psalty]

I like John 15 and Romans 11.

Keep abiding. If you dont, you are broken off. But you can be grafted in again.

You must abide, my dudes!

 

[Piper 2]

In my opinion, there are no consistent Arminians who believe you can lose your salvation. I was one for may, many years, schooled in the Church of Christ, read all the books, went to all the conferences, etc. THE BIBLE CURED ME.

 

[Craigbythesea]

In my opinion—which was the unanimous opinion until the 16th century and is still the view of the large majority Christians—Christians who have been born again have the option to return to their sins and die again. Moreover,

Matt. 1:21. She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (NRSV)

In the New Testament, salvation is from sin. If a Christian reverts to his sins, what is he still saved from?

 

[Psalty]

In my opinion, there are no consistent Arminians who believe you can lose your salvation. I was one for may, many years, schooled in the Church of Christ, read all the books, went to all the conferences, etc. THE BIBLE CURED ME.

I dont consider myself Arminian, but how do you understand Rom 11?

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
— Romans 11:19-24

 

[JesusFan]

On another thread there was a post about loosing salvation.
So lets do a poll on this:

Shoudl also add, IF you hold to can lose salvation, do you agree with Hebrews can never get it back?