If once saved - can again be lost? The Poll

[Cathode]

In other words, when you eat the bread and drink the cup at the Lord's Supper you acknowledging your faith in what He did at Calvary.

Where does it say that? You are adding human teachings again.

 

[Charlie24]

Where does it say that? You are adding human teachings again.

Charlie was interpreting for you how we can eat and drink unworthily, without faith in what He was about to do on the Cross.

 

[Cathode]

Charlie was interpreting for you how we can eat and drink unworthily, without faith in what He was about to do on the Cross.

Where does it say that?

That’s not what scripture says.

 

[Charlie24]

Where does it say that?

That’s not what scripture says.

Cool Hand Cathode, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

Our view of the purpose for the Lord's Supper is not in the ballpark together.

 

[DaveXR650]

In other words, when you eat the bread and drink the cup at the Lord's Supper you acknowledging your faith in what He did at Calvary.

Where does it say that? You are adding human teachings again.

" at the last supper, on the night He was betrayed, that He might leave to His beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice once to be accomplished on the cross might be represented, the memory thereof remain even to the end of the world, and its salutary effects applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit, declaring Himself constituted a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech,"

Cathode. That's from the Council of Trent on the Mass. Your church does indeed say it's commemorative and that the ritual is designed to assist us in "retaining memory". So Charlie is right. And to that extent I have no problem. What I do have a problem with though is where later, they go further and indeed say the mass is actually propitiatory and also I have a problem with the idea that this has to be done by a "priest", which is not found in our New Testament.

 

[Walter]

A high-profile conservative Southern Baptist becomes Catholic – Baptist News Global

A former high-profile leader of the “conservative resurgence” in the Southern Baptist Convention has become a Roman Catholic.

baptistnews.com

Now, I am wondering. If you contend that Catholics worship 'anotherJesus', and that this man goes to his death as a Catholic (like so many evangelicals who find the truth about Christ's Holy Church), is it your position that Johnson never really knew Jesus as Lord and Saviou to begin with, or that he will have forfeited his salvation?

Apparently not all on this board believe in eternal security, so maybe we will have mixed answers to my question.

 

[Charlie24]

" at the last supper, on the night He was betrayed, that He might leave to His beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice once to be accomplished on the cross might be represented, the memory thereof remain even to the end of the world, and its salutary effects applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit, declaring Himself constituted a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech,"

Cathode. That's from the Council of Trent on the Mass. Your church does indeed say it's commemorative and that the ritual is designed to assist us in "retaining memory". So Charlie is right. And to that extent I have no problem. What I do have a problem with though is where later, they go further and indeed say the mass is actually propitiatory and also I have a problem with the idea that this has to be done by a "priest", which is not found in our New Testament.

Where are you gonna be preaching next week? I want to tune in.

 

[DaveXR650]

Now, I am wondering. If you contend that Catholics worship 'anotherJesus', and that this man goes to his death as a Catholic (like so many evangelicals who find the truth about Christ's Holy Church), is it your position that Johnson never really knew Jesus as Lord and Saviou to begin with, or that he will have forfeited his salvation?

Apparently not all on this board believe in eternal security, so maybe we will have mixed answers to my question.

There is another thread featuring that video. But I don't think Catholics worship another Jesus. I think there are some grave errors in their theology and Church organization.

I need to look into Jerry Johnson a little more. But as I said on the other thread he seems at first glance to be a very gifted and ambitious man, who has correctly perceived that his career is best served by becoming Roman Catholic at this point in his life. Catholics are dominating the literature right now in seriously defending classic conservatism and conservative ethics. Our V.P. is Catholic I believe, and colleges like Hillsdale are carrying the fight at the philosophical level.

If you watch the video though, you will find his reasoning is not convincing at a theological level. It is no better than @Cathode's reasoning. Evangelical churches do need to reconsider some of the silliness we have fallen into in an attempt to attract worshippers. It's one thing to deliberately pursue simplicity and plainness as opposed to worldly opulence, but we almost seem to feel we have to compete with the world's entertainment - which we can never do without debasing ourselves and our worship.

 

[Cathode]

" at the last supper, on the night He was betrayed, that He might leave to His beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice once to be accomplished on the cross might be represented, the memory thereof remain even to the end of the world, and its salutary effects applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit, declaring Himself constituted a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech,"

Cathode. That's from the Council of Trent on the Mass. Your church does indeed say it's commemorative and that the ritual is designed to assist us in "retaining memory". So Charlie is right. And to that extent I have no problem. What I do have a problem with though is where later, they go further and indeed say the mass is actually propitiatory and also I have a problem with the idea that this has to be done by a "priest", which is not found in our New Testament.

Commemorative but not just commemorative such that it renders the Eucharistic elements merely symbolic, no.
Scripture doesn’t give you that.

Rememberance in the paschal sense is far more than commemoration in modern times.
When Jews gather at Passover, it is not another Passover commemoration, it is all Israel past, present and future gatherrd at the one Passover.

 

[Cathode]

There is another thread featuring that video. But I don't think Catholics worship another Jesus. I think there are some grave errors in their theology and Church organization.

I need to look into Jerry Johnson a little more. But as I said on the other thread he seems at first glance to be a very gifted and ambitious man, who has correctly perceived that his career is best served by becoming Roman Catholic at this point in his life.

Am I detecting dismissive veiled barbs here Dave?

Ambitious, career is best served.

You think his conversion is an ambitious career move?

Could you assign higher motives to him Dave or is that the extent of your generosity for the man?

 

[Walter]

There is another thread featuring that video. But I don't think Catholics worship another Jesus. I think there are some grave errors in their theology and Church organization.

I need to look into Jerry Johnson a little more. But as I said on the other thread he seems at first glance to be a very gifted and ambitious man, who has correctly perceived that his career is best served by becoming Roman Catholic at this point in his life. Catholics are dominating the literature right now in seriously defending classic conservatism and conservative ethics. Our V.P. is Catholic I believe, and colleges like Hillsdale are carrying the fight at the philosophical level.

If you watch the video though, you will find his reasoning is not convincing at a theological level. It is no better than @Cathode's reasoning. Evangelical churches do need to reconsider some of the silliness we have fallen into in an attempt to attract worshippers. It's one thing to deliberately pursue simplicity and plainness as opposed to worldly opulence, but we almost seem to feel we have to compete with the world's entertainment - which we can never do without debasing ourselves and our worship.

I appreciate your belief that Catholics don't worship 'anotherr Jesus' but I know that is not the position of many on this board. I have been told over the years on the BB that if I was truly saved I would eventually repent and 'come out of The Great Whore'. I can tell you now, I am more convinced of the truth of Catholicism than I was when I first converted and will not 'be coming out of Her'.

Just ask Oseas3 if Catholics are demonic or not. But, as the OP is about Eternal Security, I am curious as to what those who believe a person cannot be truly saved and remain in the Catholic Church do with someone like me? If I die believing the teachings of the Catholic Church, is it probable that I never truly repented of my sins and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior? I can assure you, as a Baptist I experienced that and I am grateful for that. Is my soul eternally secure based on that fact?

 

[DaveXR650]

Am I detecting dismissive veiled barbs here Dave?

Ambitious, career is best served.

You think his conversion is an ambitious career move?

Could you assign higher motives to him Dave or is that the extent of your generosity for the man?

Not meant to be veiled at all. This is my assessment of his "conversion" based on what I understand as of this time. I cannot assign higher motives to it unless he can do better than the video he himself made. It is what it is. That being said. I spend a lot of time on the "First Things" web site. Most of the contributors are catholic and I find their ability to argue a thoughtful conservative case in governance and ethics worth reading. I really like Carl Trueman, who is not Catholic, and he's the reason I first got on the site, but he obviously sees the value of some Catholic writings and I agree. I think we will hear more of Jerry Johnson in the future and I believe it will be well thought out. But he gives no compelling case for converting to Roman Catholicism outside of the fact they have the most going on in his chosen field of expertise.

 

[Walter]

Dave, you mentioned J.D. Vance. I am interested in knowing more about his decision to convert to becoming Catholic. Its my understanding that he was raised in conservative evangelicalism, but became an atheist.

 

[Cathode]

Not meant to be veiled at all. This is my assessment of his "conversion" based on what I understand as of this time. I cannot assign higher motives to it unless he can do better than the video he himself made. It is what it is. That being said. I spend a lot of time on the "First Things" web site. Most of the contributors are catholic and I find their ability to argue a thoughtful conservative case in governance and ethics worth reading. I really like Carl Trueman, who is not Catholic, and he's the reason I first got on the site, but he obviously sees the value of some Catholic writings and I agree. I think we will hear more of Jerry Johnson in the future and I believe it will be well thought out. But he gives no compelling case for converting to Roman Catholicism outside of the fact they have the most going on in his chosen field of expertise.

Do you believe he became Catholic because he sincerely believes Catholicism to be true, or was it just an ambitious career move on his part?

 

[DaveXR650]

Dave, you mentioned J.D. Vance. I am interested in knowing more about his decision to convert to becoming Catholic. Its my understanding that he was raised in conservative evangelicalism, but became an atheist.

To read his own story, it seems to me that he wasn't raised in much of anything. I think he was living in Cincinnati when he was converted. There again, the cynical side of me suspects some of the same reasons I gave above regarding Johnson. In addition, his wife I don't think is of the same faith and frankly I think he might find less hassle for him than in some other denominations. As for me, I worked in a Catholic hospital, have Catholic friends and don't feel the level of conscious animosity that some on this board seem to have regarding Catholics. But I do discuss these things with them as I have opportunity.

 

[DaveXR650]

Do you believe he became Catholic because he sincerely believes Catholicism to be true, or was it just an ambitious career move on his part?

I can't really know as I don't know him. I just watched the video. I suspect his motives because his explanation for becoming Catholic is a lot like everyone else's on EWTN. (If I have the letters right).
It always centers around the beauty and dignity of the ceremonies, the church buildings, and the mass, which I don't find compelling. As for him being ambitious, apparently, he denounced the then current leader of the Southern Baptist Convention one month after he himself arrived. He may have been right, but my point is - that is ambitious. Look at his resume and tell me you don't think he is ambitious. That is not necessarily wrong though.

 

[canadyjd]

1Corinthians 11:23-26

Paul gives his account of receiving the commandment of the Lord’s supper from Jesus Himself.

In partaking of both the bread and cup, Jesus said to do this in remembrance of Him. He does not say it conveys salvific grace. He does not say it is literally His body and blood. Do this in “remembrance “…

Paul concludes that as often as we take the bread and cup we “proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.” That is what we are to remember.

It is very obviously meant to keep Christians focused on Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross for their sins. It is a memorial. A constant reminder of the costs of their sin before God.

I do not expect the Catholics to agree.

Peace to you

 

[Walter]

1Corinthians 11:23-26

Paul gives his account of receiving the commandment of the Lord’s supper from Jesus Himself.

In partaking of both the bread and cup, Jesus said to do this in remembrance of Him. He does not say it conveys salvific grace. He does not say it is literally His body and blood. Do this in “remembrance “…

Paul concludes that as often as we take the bread and cup we “proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.” That is what we are to remember.

It is very obviously meant to keep Christians focused on Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross for their sins. It is a memorial. A constant reminder of the costs of their sin before God.

I do not expect the Catholics to agree.

Peace to you

No, we don't agree because John 6 and St. Paul makes it clear that it's not merely a memorial meal tacked on to the end of a service using a prepackaged wafer that tastes more like cardboard than it does bread and awful tasting grape juice.

This, as described by the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1363), is a living, liturgical memory that makes the past event of the Cross present, rather than just remembering it.

 

[Cathode]

I can't really know as I don't know him. I just watched the video. I suspect his motives because his explanation for becoming Catholic is a lot like everyone else's on EWTN. (If I have the letters right).
It always centers around the beauty and dignity of the ceremonies, the church buildings, and the mass, which I don't find compelling.

You are assigning shallow motivations for the most part. This not my experience of EWTN coverts or Jerry’s account either, they often reference scriptural reasons for their conversion.
Jerry was referring to the Bible a number of times in the video. Maybe you should re watch it.

As for him being ambitious, apparently, he denounced the then current leader of the Southern Baptist Convention one month after he himself arrived. He may have been right, but my point is - that is ambitious. Look at his resume and tell me you don't think he is ambitious. That is not necessarily wrong though.

He was fighting against the liberal bent in the organisation as he saw it. Your use of “ ambitious “ unqualified assigns a negative personal motivation on his part like he just wanted the top job.
He subsequently got the top job, but from what I saw of his account and demeanour, he sincerely believed in his cause.

 

[Charlie24]

@Cathode

I don't know a single practicing Catholic, so when I have a question I ask you. I hope you don't mind that.

I was wondering if told a Catholic priest that I believe in salvation by Grace through faith alone without works for my initial salvation, would he understand what I meant?

The RCC is all about works in the realm of salvation and I'm not sure he would understand me.