Love begins with Christ, Cathode, I think you know that.
Then, as the Scripture says, that love is spread abroad in us.
That's when the works begin proving the faith.
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If once saved - can again be lost? The Poll
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
Love begins with Christ, Cathode, I think you know that.
Then, as the Scripture says, that love is spread abroad in us.
That's when the works begin proving the faith.
But wait, that's not the Catholic way is it?
The works are needed for salvation, right?
Hey Cathode, here is my scriptural argument.
1. Was the first passover communion the eating and drinking of Jesus’ body?
2. How can it be His actual body when he had neither died nor ascended?
3. How can it be His actual blood “poured out for many” when it hasnt been literally poured out yet?
4. Why does Jesus at the end of this section not describe it as His blood but rather the “fruit of the vine?” If you want us to take John 6 literal, why should I not take Mark 14:26 literal?
Ill have some more on John 6 after we sort these ones out.
Edit: cleaned up
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Well, you could try just believing intellectually and not loving others.
Baptists will say ‘ Believing on or in Jesus ‘ and not clarify exactly what that entails.
They get evasive not wanting to admit that their understanding of saving faith is just intellectual assent. Dead faith.
Or not wanting to admit that true Faith has an element of the works of love to it.
No you can’t just intellectually believe and not do the works of Love.
Saving faith must work through love.
I can understand why you're ignoring justification by faith alone, if I were you that's exactly what I'd be doing.
That's my biggest problem with the RCC, just wanted to point that out clearly.
But you're ok, Cathode, I enjoy learning from you about the RCC.
Yes. Jesus declared it so.
Because Jesus said it. Jesus words are reality.
This is when Jesus first poured out His blood and handed over His Body to men. Jesus passion began at the Last Supper. Before this no one could harm Him.
Because Jesus did drink wine. But what He gave to the disciples was His Blood.
Ascetic X
Active Member
@Cathode is right.
Faith is a word that for some people often means just adhering to a creed, having a set of beliefs, an acceptance of a doctrine. Head knowledge.
“I agree that Jesus died for my sins and rose again from the dead.”
Then they add a bunch of other dogma, based on their denomination, and this results in them thinking they are saved Christians going to heaven. They wear a cross necklace, delight in church, and read devout books.
Meanwhile, they may be strict morally and feel proud — or they might pamper the flesh, view adult entertainment, get drunk or stoned, chase money, use cuss words, drive over the speed limit, gossip, never help the poor, look lewdly upon women, commit fornication or adultery, watch horror films, lie about stuff, cheat on taxes, steal, gamble, engage in gluttony, fight in wars, envy more successful people, covet things, enjoy worldly music, play violent video games, etc.
To give mental assent to spiritual statements, without acting on them, without actually obeying God and imitating Jesus, is a dead faith, which does not save anyone.
Genuine faith is verified by godly works. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
Faith is a word that for some people often means just adhering to a creed, having a set of beliefs, an acceptance of a doctrine. Head knowledge.
“I agree that Jesus died for my sins and rose again from the dead.”
Then they add a bunch of other dogma, based on their denomination, and this results in them thinking they are saved Christians going to heaven. They wear a cross necklace, delight in church, and read devout books.
Meanwhile, they may be strict morally and feel proud — or they might pamper the flesh, view adult entertainment, get drunk or stoned, chase money, use cuss words, drive over the speed limit, gossip, never help the poor, look lewdly upon women, commit fornication or adultery, watch horror films, lie about stuff, cheat on taxes, steal, gamble, engage in gluttony, fight in wars, envy more successful people, covet things, enjoy worldly music, play violent video games, etc.
To give mental assent to spiritual statements, without acting on them, without actually obeying God and imitating Jesus, is a dead faith, which does not save anyone.
Genuine faith is verified by godly works. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.
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But what you haven’t answered is what you mean by “ Faith “.
For Catholics saving Faith is more than just intellectual assent, it is faith acting through love, it must be acted out to be real, not just something you believe in your head.
The Catholics can't accept this, it's not enough, they have to add the good works.
Rom. 10:9-10
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
So you don’t have to love others or do the things Jesus commanded?
Ascetic X
Active Member
Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith must be authentic, which means it produces fruit. Works do not save, they prove you have salvation.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
2 Peter 1:5 New Living
In view of all this, make every effort to respond to God’s promises. Supplement your faith with a generous provision of moral excellence, and moral excellence with knowledge,
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. / Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ / Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’
Do I need repeat myself on the love shed abroad in us as the Scripture says?
Yes, authentic, as in "for with the heart man believes unto righteousness."
If you're saying that James is teaching faith + works = salvation, you are mistaken.
Paul states beyond a shadow of doubt salvation is without works.
James in defining the quality of faith needed for salvation, the kind of faith that " Believes from the heart, and works will accompany it.
Again, check out the Joint Declaration On Justification agreed upon the by Lutherans and Catholics and signed onto by Anglicans and Methodists. You will learn a lot there also.
If you look at the Church’s official documents—like the Decree on Justification from the Council of Trent in the 1500s or the Catechism of the Catholic Church—you know how many times these documents use the phrase “justified by faith and works”?
None! That’s right, absolutely none!
You won’t find that language in any document of the Catholic Church dealing with justification.
Are you saying as a Catholic you are justified by faith alone in Jesus Christ?
I think sometimes we are talking past each other and our position is not understood. Even the original Sola Fide Lutheran belief is not what you define as 'faith alone' as it includes a necessity of baptism.
But, to answer your question, as Cathode points out, if "faith alone" is understood as faith formed by love, it is acceptable, but faith separated from love does not save.
Actually Jesus refers to it as wine, in that moment. Do you say it is actually both?
The parallel passage in Luke. Jesus calls it wine “now”.
And when He drinks it in the Kingdom, will it be wine or blood?
It's not faith alone if you are depending on a man to perform a ceremony (water baptism) on your behalf to complete your salvation.
As I've said several times recently that is works and cancels out Grace.
Paul is here speaking of justification by Grace through faith VS. a salvation of works.
Read and see if you can see the cancellation.
Rom. 11:6-8
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear\ unto this day."