IF Once Were Arminist, What verse(s) Forced You To calvinism?

[JesusFan]

If you remember:
1. The Apostles were chosen directly by an omniscient Lord Jesus Christ who knew the hearts of all men.
2. When Judas, who betrayed Jesus, and went out and hung himself, had to be replaced, then the disciples had to choose one to take his place. What took place.
It was a matter of prayer.
There was a matter of conditions being met.
He had to have seen the resurrection.
They had to have been with Jesus from his baptism onward.

In other words they had to be qualified.
After throwing lots, which was a method ordained of God, they chose one out of two qualified men, and Matthias was chosen. This was the careful process that was taken in order that an apostle was chosen when Christ was not physically present among them.

Thus your statement "ALL were called and chosen by Jesus," is false.

Jesus call/chose ALL of the 112 to be His Apostles, even Judas, in order that he might fulfill the scriptures and betrey the Lord...

Also the Bible merely recorded how Matthias was chosen by other Apostles, does not seem to say God OK it...
Evidence does tend to show he did not, as Paul appears to actually have been the one God had chosen to replace Judas as the 12th Apostle, as the silence of Matthias in ANY biblical record after his selection seems to bourn this out...

 

[JesusFan]

No, because God knew about it in his omniscience does not mean that he made them choose as you infer.

Your conclusion and statement is wrong. Paul testified that he was one born out of due time. He testifies that he was "least than all the apostles." He did not count himself among the apostles. Matthew chapter one clearly states that Matthias was chosen to be the twelfth apostle, not Paul. Intellect has nothing to do with God's choosing.

Your human reasoning is faulty. God doesn't use human reasoning to accomplish his will. Yes Paul could have resisted God's will. Any man can. To be out of God's will is a miserable state to be in, but many are.

you cannot state from the Acts account that there were not the elected out from Isreal either, as it goes both ways on that...

paul always recognized after his salvation that he WAS the Apostle called by God unto the Gentiles, looked at himself as being co equal to the "so -called" pillars as a Peter/james/John...

He remarks about himself show us he was humbled by his past of persucuting/killing Christians, not that he saw himself inferior in any way to the other Apostles...

If anything, Paul was the greatest of them all, s God chose to reveal unto Him alone the "hidden/mystery" things concerning the fulness of the Gospel of grace...

Do you really think God would have 'called" paul to be the chief Apostle, to give these additional revelations to, and "risk" him saying "no thanks?"

Look throughout the Biblical accounts, any "real" man/woman God called say ultimately "no thanks/no way" to the Lord?
Jonah tries, God got him on right track...

Tend to look at paul as Moses, both had a definitePlan to do on behalf of God, and God would "make sure" neither of them could say "no way"

 

[DHK]

Jesus call/chose ALL of the 112 to be His Apostles, even Judas, in order that he might fulfill the scriptures and betrey the Lord...

Also the Bible merely recorded how Matthias was chosen by other Apostles, does not seem to say God OK it...
Evidence does tend to show he did not, as Paul appears to actually have been the one God had chosen to replace Judas as the 12th Apostle, as the silence of Matthias in ANY biblical record after his selection seems to bourn this out...

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26)

The will of God was shown right here. God put his stamp of approval on the disciple's decision. It was never revoked. Matthias was the 12th disciple. Paul never claimed to take that position. We go by the Word of God, not by human reasoning. Paul was an mighty instrument used in the hand of God, that there is no doubt. But the Lord never gave him the position of the twelfth apostle.

If you want to get technical about the word "apostle," there were many apostles in the Bible, but in a generic form of the Word.
Paul identifies himself as an apostle in Romans 1:1

Timotheus and Sylvanus are identified as apostles in 1Thes.1:1; 1Thes.2:6
Barnabus is identified as an apostle. And so there are others as well.

But in the technical sense there are only 12, 12 men who will have their names written on the foundations of the New Jerusalem.

 

[JesusFan]

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26)

The will of God was shown right here. God put his stamp of approval on the disciple's decision. It was never revoked. Matthias was the 12th disciple. Paul never claimed to take that position. We go by the Word of God, not by human reasoning. Paul was an mighty instrument used in the hand of God, that there is no doubt. But the Lord never gave him the position of the twelfth apostle.

If you want to get technical about the word "apostle," there were many apostles in the Bible, but in a generic form of the Word.
Paul identifies himself as an apostle in Romans 1:1

Timotheus and Sylvanus are identified as apostles in 1Thes.1:1; 1Thes.2:6
Barnabus is identified as an apostle. And so there are others as well.

But in the technical sense there are only 12, 12 men who will have their names written on the foundations of the New Jerusalem.

And the greatest Apostle of them All, paul, will not be numbered among them?

Again, did it say God chose Mattias, or that the Apostles did?

just saying that the Bible seemd to undicate that the true replacement for Judas was the one God chose, Apostle Paul.....

And Paul was JUST a smuch an Apostle as other 11, as he saw resurrected Christ, received direct revelation, was inspired etc, Just as other Apostles were!

 

[glfredrick]

Perhaps we place too much emphasis on the term "apostle" which in common NT useage means simply "one sent forth -- messenger."

 

[DHK]

And the greatest Apostle of them All, paul, will not be numbered among them?

No, he will have his reward among the other believers just as Luke will, who was not an apostle, but wrote both the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. They will receive their rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, as will William Carey who translated the Bible or parts thereof into 47 different languages. The fact that God used different men in different ways does not put them in the category of one of the 12. After all there can only be 12. You are arguing from your emotions, not from the Word.

Again, did it say God chose Mattias, or that the Apostles did?

God ordained the Apostles choice. He commanded them to do it. He never rescinded their choice. It was done according to His will. Peter, at the beginning explained the process. They did not make any mistakes. The Scriptures give no indication of that. Do not go by human reasoning or by emotion. Go by the Word of God.

just saying that the Bible seemd to undicate that the true replacement for Judas was the one God chose, Apostle Paul.....

What seems to you and what is are two different things.
It never says that God chose Paul to be one of the twelve. If you can produce one iota of evidence, just one verse of Scripture to suggest that he did, I would like to see it. You have produced human reasoning and that is all. That is not good enough.

And Paul was JUST a smuch an Apostle as other 11, as he saw resurrected Christ, received direct revelation, was inspired etc, Just as other Apostles were!

And so was Barnabus, Timothy, and Sylvanus, all called apostles in the Word of God. Look it up. Do a word search. There are more than just the 12. Paul never even suggests that he was one of the 12.

 

[glfredrick]

DHK, so who will be the 12 that surround the throne of God in Rev. 21:14:?

Will one be Judas? Matthias? Paul? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

No, he will have his reward among the other believers just as Luke will, who was not an apostle, but wrote both the gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. They will receive their rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, as will William Carey who translated the Bible or parts thereof into 47 different languages. The fact that God used different men in different ways does not put them in the category of one of the 12. After all there can only be 12. You are arguing from your emotions, not from the Word.

God ordained the Apostles choice. He commanded them to do it. He never rescinded their choice. It was done according to His will. Peter, at the beginning explained the process. They did not make any mistakes. The Scriptures give no indication of that. Do not go by human reasoning or by emotion. Go by the Word of God.

What seems to you and what is are two different things.
It never says that God chose Paul to be one of the twelve. If you can produce one iota of evidence, just one verse of Scripture to suggest that he did, I would like to see it. You have produced human reasoning and that is all. That is not good enough.

And so was Barnabus, Timothy, and Sylvanus, all called apostles in the Word of God. Look it up. Do a word search. There are more than just the 12. Paul never even suggests that he was one of the 12.

Am going TOTALLY by the Bible here...

Bible records what Apostles did choosing Mattias to replace Judas, did NOT say that God had approved of their selection, pretty ggod evidence that he did not, as Lord called Paul to be another Apostle!

Peter made mistake by his "shrinking" back from Gentiles when Judaizers came to see him, and Paul read him "riot act"...
Peter recognized paul as having SAME apostolic authority as he did, just his was with Jews, Paul with Gentiles...

Peter saw his writtings as equal to the scriptures...

God the Fatjer and Jesus CALLED Paul as an Apostle, SAME as one of the original 12.. same role/function/position/authority etc

All of that is found in the Bible record!

 

[DHK]

Am going TOTALLY by the Bible here...

Bible records what Apostles did choosing Mattias to replace Judas, did NOT say that God had approved of their selection, pretty ggod evidence that he did not, as Lord called Paul to be another Apostle!

No, you are not going by the Bible. You are fighting against it, putting forth your opinion above the Word of God. Just because you want Paul to be the 12th apostle won't make it so. Consider the facts:

1. It was necessary that someone take the place of Judas at that time. Paul wasn't even around then. He wasn't "in the running."

2. Acts 1:14,15 indicate that there were 120 disciples praying fervently, and Mary, the mother of Jesus, was among them. The entire process was preceded by a lengthy time of prayer.

3. Acts 1:16-20: Peter arises and explains to all that there why another must be chosen to take Judas's place. One of the reasons was simply a fulfillment of prophecy. From the very fact that it was a fulfillment of prophecy is an indication that this was from the Lord.

4. Acts 1:21,22: Peter gives the qualification of an Apostle. Note that Paul does not meet these qualifications.

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. (Acts 1:22)
--Paul was not with our Lord from the baptism of John to the ascension. This disqualifies him from being one of the 12.

5. The appointed two.
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. (Acts 1:23)
--After much prayer it was the Lord that led them to do so. These men had to meet the above qualifications.

6. Now consider their prayer
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, (Acts 1:24)
--It was the Lord that chose Matthias; not the disciples. This, technically, was still the OT dispensation, the Church Age not beginning until the day after. Thus the practice of throwing lots. Remember also that John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets. The entire book of Acts is a book of transition. It was God that chose Matthias through the method of throwing lots.

7. Here is God's choice:
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26)
--God chose Matthias in answer to the disciples prayer.

Peter made mistake by his "shrinking" back from Gentiles when Judaizers came to see him, and Paul read him "riot act"...
Peter recognized paul as having SAME apostolic authority as he did, just his was with Jews, Paul with Gentiles...

And so--a red herring. Paul lost his temper with Barnabas. The strife was so great between them that they parted ways.

Peter saw his writtings as equal to the scriptures...

--an evidence that the apostles knew which writings were inspired and which were not.

God the Fatjer and Jesus CALLED Paul as an Apostle, SAME as one of the original 12.. same role/function/position/authority etc

All of that is found in the Bible record!

And Barnabas, Sylvanus and Timothy is found in the Bible record as Apostles well. You seem to be ignoring this little fact. Why?
Paul was never considered as one of the twelve. You have provided no evidence that he usurped the choice of God in Acts chapter one.

 

[JesusFan]

No, you are not going by the Bible. You are fighting against it, putting forth your opinion above the Word of God. Just because you want Paul to be the 12th apostle won't make it so. Consider the facts:

1. It was necessary that someone take the place of Judas at that time. Paul wasn't even around then. He wasn't "in the running."

2. Acts 1:14,15 indicate that there were 120 disciples praying fervently, and Mary, the mother of Jesus, was among them. The entire process was preceded by a lengthy time of prayer.

3. Acts 1:16-20: Peter arises and explains to all that there why another must be chosen to take Judas's place. One of the reasons was simply a fulfillment of prophecy. From the very fact that it was a fulfillment of prophecy is an indication that this was from the Lord.

4. Acts 1:21,22: Peter gives the qualification of an Apostle. Note that Paul does not meet these qualifications.

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. (Acts 1:22)
--Paul was not with our Lord from the baptism of John to the ascension. This disqualifies him from being one of the 12.

5. The appointed two.
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. (Acts 1:23)
--After much prayer it was the Lord that led them to do so. These men had to meet the above qualifications.

6. Now consider their prayer
And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, (Acts 1:24)
--It was the Lord that chose Matthias; not the disciples. This, technically, was still the OT dispensation, the Church Age not beginning until the day after. Thus the practice of throwing lots. Remember also that John the Baptist was the last of the OT prophets. The entire book of Acts is a book of transition. It was God that chose Matthias through the method of throwing lots.

7. Here is God's choice:
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26)
--God chose Matthias in answer to the disciples prayer.

And so--a red herring. Paul lost his temper with Barnabas. The strife was so great between them that they parted ways.

--an evidence that the apostles knew which writings were inspired and which were not.


And Barnabas, Sylvanus and Timothy is found in the Bible record as Apostles well. You seem to be ignoring this little fact. Why?
Paul was never considered as one of the twelve. You have provided no evidence that he usurped the choice of God in Acts chapter one.

paul was chosen by the Lord to Receive the GREATEST revelations, those of the mystery of the Church, to be able to fully expound and unfold the Gospel of Grace...

he was directly chosen by Jesus, commissioned by Him to be THE Apostle unto Gentiles, SAME authority rank position as Peter was to the Jews...

Where in the Bible are other listed as Apostles other than 12/Paul/Mattias ?

Paul was the greatest among all Apostles, why would he NOT be the replacement for Judas?
What did Mattias every do outside being selected by Apostles?

 

[Van]

Reply to Jesusfan

Actually, he does a very good job of supporting what would be considered as being a "moderate" camp in calvinism...

Election IS a biblical concept, as both Arms and cals affirm it, just diferring on WHAT is actually said by that...

BOTH say God is all knowing, all powerful, able to do as he pleases etc...

Arms tend to say that God has chosen to "allow" man to place his faith in jeus, as he gives "general" grace to all from the Cross, so its our fault if we go to Heaven/Hell

Cals see it as being we are SO messed up as a result of the Fall, that we are in sin, with actual sin natures , which would prevent us from excerxising faith in Christ, so God directly intervenes to allow his elected out ones to be able to turn and become saved by Christ...

Yes, I know that is what Cals believe, but I was looking for some sort of sound support. I found none. You think we are so messed up we cannot trust in Christ. But God credited Abraham's faith as righteousness. Jesus told the lady, your faith has saved you. And on and on. So we return to the question, why did you forsake what the bible actually says and embrace what other men have added to it?

No one seeks God equates with biblical truth.

No one seeks God at any time equates with adding to scripture.

God commands us to seek God. And we are unable to seek God perfectly, for when we sin we are not seeking God. But we still have the ability to strive to seek God, rather than total inability to seek God.

All four of the false doctrines of Calvinism fall in the light of contextual consideration. Everywhere you look you will see a word meaning changed, or qualifier added, or a verse taken out of context.

I see no attraction for the doctrine at all, yet the majority of posters say something about it clicked with them. Very disturbing for those that believe we have the capacity to sort out the truth from falsehood by prayerful study and collaboration.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I see no attraction for the doctrine at all. (as per Van)

But of course you would not :smilewinkgrin: Anyone ever reading any of your debasing commentary on Calvinism would know it...thats hardly a shock.

Frankly however.....I couldnt care less what you say about my beliefs. As for me & mine we shall continue in our beliefs, irrespective of your opinions. Good Day to you.:tongue3:

 

[Luke2427]

Any particular Bible passages?

There are a myriad of verses of course that clearly teach that salvation is ALL of God which demands all five points of Calvinism.

But here is one of my favorite.

Romans 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Everybody God justifies he glorifies- eternal security.

Just so, everybody God calls he justifies- particular redemption.

If God calls he saves.

If someone is not saved it is because God did not call them because EVERYBODY God calls he justifies, and EVERYBODY God justifies he glorifies.

 

[Aaron]

Read more carefully Aaron. I said (actually Paul said it, I'm just quoting him), they DID (past tense) know him and understand him. Here read Paul's words for yourself:

You said they believed. Don't try to weasle out now by pretending to have been supporting the Scripture the whole time. Your own words are doing you in. I'm done arguing.

 

[DHK]

paul was chosen by the Lord to Receive the GREATEST revelations, those of the mystery of the Church, to be able to fully expound and unfold the Gospel of Grace...

he was directly chosen by Jesus, commissioned by Him to be THE Apostle unto Gentiles, SAME authority rank position as Peter was to the Jews...

Where in the Bible are other listed as Apostles other than 12/Paul/Mattias ?

Paul was the greatest among all Apostles, why would he NOT be the replacement for Judas?
What did Mattias every do outside being selected by Apostles?

When you get to heaven you can ask the Lord those questions.
Paul was not qualified to be one of twelve.
He had not been with the Lord from the baptism of John to the ascension.
He was not a witness of those things. That disqualified him in spite of his further accomplishments. Sorry you don't like those the conclusions. But that is what the Bible has to say on the matter.

 

[JesusFan]

When you get to heaven you can ask the Lord those questions.
Paul was not qualified to be one of twelve.
He had not been with the Lord from the baptism of John to the ascension.
He was not a witness of those things. That disqualified him in spite of his further accomplishments. Sorry you don't like those the conclusions. But that is what the Bible has to say on the matter.

Do you at least see Paul as being an Apostle equal to those of the original 12 circles?
That he was not lesser than any of them, but fully equal regarding his authority/position/inspiration in early Church?

 

[DHK]

Do you at least see Paul as being an Apostle equal to those of the original 12 circles?
That he was not lesser than any of them, but fully equal regarding his authority/position/inspiration in early Church?

After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1 Corinthians 15:7-10)

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Should try to get back to the original OP.

 

[JesusFan]

After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1 Corinthians 15:7-10)

Again, that just shows us that Paul was humbled by his past, how he went after the Church of Christ, blasphemed Him by his mouth and his deeds...

Showed us was a humble man, NOT how Christ viewed him...

IF he was really just the least of the Apostles, why did God grant him to receive the greatest revelation of ANY of the Apostles of Christ?

Why was he "in no way inferior" to those such as Peter/John/James?

Why did Peter and other Apostles see him as being JUST as commissioned on behalf of Christ as they all were ?

How can the "least" among them be viewed by both Apostles and Jesus as being "first among equals?" Peter seeing him his co-equal, Paul to Gentiles, He to the Jews?

 

[Winman]

Again, that just shows us that Paul was humbled by his past, how he went after the Church of Christ, blasphemed Him by his mouth and his deeds...

Showed us was a humble man, NOT how Christ viewed him...

IF he was really just the least of the Apostles, why did God grant him to receive the greatest revelation of ANY of the Apostles of Christ?

Why was he "in no way inferior" to those such as Peter/John/James?

Why did Peter and other Apostles see him as being JUST as commissioned on behalf of Christ as they all were ?

How can the "least" among them be viewed by both Apostles and Jesus as being "first among equals?" Peter seeing him his co-equal, Paul to Gentiles, He to the Jews?

Paul had to be the least to be the greatest.

Matt 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

In this world men serve who is great. But Jesus said for Christians, if you would be great you must humble yourself and become the least, you must become a servant to all, just as he came not to be ministered to, but to minister to others and give his life as a ransom.

And Paul did give his life for Christ. Read 2 Corinthians 11. Five times Paul received thirty-nine stripes, three times beaten with rods, he was stoned once, shipwrecked three times and spent a day and a night in the sea. He had to be let down by a basket to escape in Damascus. He spent his entire life travelling, which was very difficult back then, being cold, hot, hungry, often in danger...

In addition, he had to do all the work as a pastor for many churches.

Paul humbled himself because he loved the Lord, for he had been forgiven great sins. He became a servant and in doing so became great.