If regeneration happens in order that we may believe,

Just curious - I'm wondering how you can hold to both of those statements. Are "acts of rebellion" not sins? Or are unbelievers held accountable for what Jesus put away?

 

>They didn't believe that Christ had risen from the dead.

Then salvation is based upon the correct interpretation of a historical event?

 

So, Christ didn't really put away all sins? Or did He put this one away too, but it is still unforgivable?

 

Old Regular,

Don’t kid yourself about what you have been taught by your false teachers.

You said, ‘The reason they did not believe was because they were not the Sheep of Jesus Christ. They had not been regenerated but were still dead in trespass and sin. Ephesians 2:1-10 spells this out clearly to me.’ [/quote]

The truth is that the Jews lost their city in 70 A.D. only because they rejected their Messiah. Read John 1:11. Do not have the audacity to blame the Lord for autocratically pushing His own people all off to Hell. This is at least irreligious and at worse heretical.

Jesus desire was to gather His people so He could establish His theocratic Kingdom on earth, but they rejected both the Kingdom and their King. Read it for yourself in Matthew 23:34-39. Here are the words of our Lord which Calvinists spurn. ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, BUT YE WOULD NOT! That free will and agency of man truth always rises out of the words of the writers who were all under the supervision of the Godhead. Because of their refusal to receive their own Messiah, their ‘house was left unto them desolate.’ [vs.38]

Because of their rejection and or negligence to receive the Jewish Messiah, the way was opened to us Gentiles. Thanks be to God! John 1:12 says, ‘But to as many as receive Him—He gives the power {our word for dynamite} to become the children of God; those who believe on His Name.’

People make themselves ‘not of His sheep’ because they neglect or reject ‘so great a salvation.’ Almighty God is not running a ‘Howdy duddy—Buffalo Bill’ stage show on this earth.

Adam and Even chose to go by way of the Fall and the highest archangel fell because he chose to be disobedient and to sin against the Godhead. The archangel was perfect before the Lord ‘ . . . until iniquity was found in him by the sovereign Lord of glory.

Did God know in eternity past that the couple and the archangel would fall from grace? Absolutely!!

In the case of human beings, He planned in eternity past, the Cross. The fallen angels will be damned forevermore; all of them will eventually end up in eternal destruction.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

In my last post I should have given the Scriptural reference which a lot of people might not have known where it is located.

The third paragraph speaks of God not ordaining but 'finding iniquity in Jesus' highest angel. This angel, of course, was cast out of Heaven down to this planet called, earth. Study Ezekiel 28:13-19. The archangel was not only found with one sin but 'a multitude of iniquities.' [vs] 18

'until iniquity was found in thee.' [Ezekiel 28:15]

 

Oldregular,

Because we, just like the sheep we are, have gone astray from God. God laid upon His Lamb of God, Slain from the foundation of the world, all of our iniquities (sins)

And what is God's good pleasure? That None should perish!

Eph 2: 8. Because it is by grace--who's grace? God's
that you have been saved, through faith;--Who's faith? OURS!
not by anything of your own, --Not because of who you are, or what you do
but by a gift from God;--YOUR Salvation is a gift from God!
not by anything that you have done, so that nobody can claim the credit.--You cannot earn Salvation by working for it!

Salvation, the free gift of God, is given to those who have faith!
Salvation is not given according to anything special about us, (election is special),
and it is not earned, lest any man should boast!

If you are saved it is through your faith alone, not by any other special condition such as election, or because of anything you do!
Salvation is given to those only who believe in God, His Son Jesus, and yes, even to those who believe on the name of Jesus.

Clearly regeneration comes THROUGH belief, and is not a prerequisite to believing.

 

whatever,

I believe all sins are acts of rebellion. First, they will be damned because they have ignored the drawing of the Spirit or even wilfully rejected Christ. Each sinner will be punished for each sin they have committed during their years here on earth. [Revelation 20:12-13]

God understands that sinners commit iniquity/sin; but there is and will be no appeal at the Great White Throne Judgment for rejecting Jesus who died for them on the Cross. The One Who died for them will also in the future judge them worthy of everlasting destruction in the Lake of Fire.

 

I believe all sins are acts of rebellion. First, they will be damned because they have ignored the drawing of the Spirit or even wilfully rejected Christ. Each sinner will be punished for each sin they have committed during their years here on earth. [Revelation 20:12-13]

God understands that sinners commit iniquity/sin; but there is and will be no appeal at the Great White Throne Judgment for rejecting Jesus who died for them on the Cross. The One Who died for them will also in the future judge them worthy of everlasting destruction in the Lake of Fire. </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry for being thick, but I'd still like you to narrow this down a bit if you would so I can see exactly what you are saying. When you say that Christ "died for them" what exactly do you mean? Was He punished for their sins? If so, why will they also be punished for their sins? And if not, does that mean that the sins of believers go unpunished? Thanks in advance for your help.

 

whatever,

You are not thick. People have been taught a certain thing so long that it is difficult to think other than just down that narrow lane that they have walked and thought through the years.

Here is my question to those who believe in a Limited Atonement. Would the pain for the sins of the whole world been more severe, than just dying for the relative few? [Matt. 7:14d]

You said,

You are asking, “If Jesus died for every person’s sins, then can they be punished again at the Judgment to those who have rejected Christ?

That is what makes rejecting Christ so terribly, terribly awful. Jesus will hold all who reject Himself responsible for their sins, insuring their eternal demise. There is no more sin in the mind of God toward anyone, except those who reject Jesus. What is the loss because Jesus has made provision for all sinners, even if they reject Him? The lost does not take place in Heaven. God remains the same. Only the Christ rejecters lose.

The ransom has been paid for all sins. [St. John 1:29; I Tim. 2:6; I John 2:2]

Did or did not Jesus ‘taste death for every person?’ [Hebrews 2:9] This One Who was and is clothed with glory and honor graced our planet and paid the ultimate price for everyone.

Believing or even not believing determine eternal destiny.

 

I have encountered many mystics on this forum. Are you one of them, otherwise, how did you know I had been taught by false teachers? Actually my teacher is the Holy Spirit as He has lead me in my study of Scripture. As you should know the Doctrine of the Sovereignty of God in Salvation, once the bedrock of Baptist Theology [pre darby], is not taught in most Baptist churches.

At least you got one thing right. Pretty good for a ThD. Jerusalem was destroyed in part because of their rejection of Jesus Christ. However, the temple sacrifices were no longer valid and the Holy Place had been opened to all with the rending of the veil.

Please do not have the audacity to read something I did not write. I am not rejecting the clear teaching of Scripture [Ephesians 1:3-6], you are.

Jesus Christ clearly teaches that none of His people will be lost. I quote:

John 6:37-40
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 11:2-10
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

I assume you are aware that most of the members of the Church in its New Testament form were Jews. Of course there were the Samaritan believers [John, Chapter 4].

Wrong again. Jesus Christ came to establish a Spiritual Kingdom, not a carnal kingdom that the Jews desired to throw off the yoke of Rome. It was for this reason that the Jews rejected Him. Their rejection of Jesus Christ was prophesied in Isaiah 6:9,10 as confirmed by Jesus Christ in Matthew 13;14, 15 and by the Apostle Paul in Acts 28:25-27.

Man will of his own free will always rejects Jesus Christ because the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God [1 Corinthians 2:14] since the natural man is spiritually dead and must be given spiritual life [regeneration] and the gift of faith in order to believe [Ephesians 2:1-8]. That being said I would also point out that Scripture teaches that the Lord GOD has no pleasure in the death of the wicked [Ezekiel 33:11].

It was necessary that Jesus Christ be crucified, die for the sins of His elect. Rome crucified Jesus Christ but the Jews were complicit in that crucifixion. However all this was to fulfill prophecy. I have already noted the prophecy from Isaiah above. Additional prophecy are indicated in the following passages:

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Your attempt to be comical or sacrilegious does not merit response.

I can't argue with you here but Adam and Eve were the only two humans ever to have a perfectly free will. After the fall the will of man is corrupted by the sin nature. After God's elect are saved the will of the saved is lead by the Holy Spirit.

You are ignoring part of the passage from Ezekiel you reference in your followup postl. Actually this passage is referring to the king of Tyrus, at least that is what Scripture states:

Ezekiel 28:11, 12
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

I can't argue with you about the foreknowledge of God but I have already discussed the so-called archangel.

Actually Scripture does not tell us about the origin of Satan. Jesus Christ does tell us in John 8:44 that: Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. That doesn't sound too much like Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

Wes, Outwest

I will not attempt to do a point by point rebuttal of your post just point out a few things.

First I must point out that Scripture tells us that we are given the gift of faith after we are regenerated. Read Ephesians 2;1-9 very carefully. We who were dead in trespass and sins and walked according to the course of this world were made spiritually alive by God [verse 5]. Verse 8 clearly shows that faith that we exercize is the gift of God.

The Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.. The natural man is the unregenerate man. He can do nothing for his own salvation.

Also please note that Paul tells us in Ephesians 1:3-6:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

The Apostle Paul clearly shows that salvation is the work of God alone in the following passaage:

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

One final passage of Scripture from the words of Jesus Christ:

John 3:3, KJV
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Now I ask you, did you have anything to do with your physical birth?

 

Old Regular,
You said,

I am a mystic in the sense that I because of His grace have a ‘mystical relationship’ with Jesus Christ. I am one with Him as all Christians are united to Him. [I Cor. 6:17] Every Christian claims to be taught by the Holy Spirit. What’s new! Some Bible Commentaries do not even include the Sovereignty of God as a Biblical doctrine. I do not have any problem, however, including sovereignty in my theology. Thank God not every Baptist Church does not teach that the Lord ‘cherry picks’ some for Heaven and Hell. This would destroy the infinity of the attribute of God’s love and Divine justice/fairness toward all sinners. [I Timothy 2:6]
________________________________________

With the Temple destroyed it would be most difficult to go into the Holy of holies with the blood of lambs and doves. Yes, with the ‘rending of the veil in twain’ Jesus made a grand entrance into His new covenant. [Heb. 7:6]

Everyone knows that God knows each elect soul that will be in the Kingdom of God. What we deny is that God autocratically elects them at will. I too, believe that none of His people will be lost. I believe in the security of every believer. [I John 5:18].

Yes, it was necessary for Jesus to die. This death was not merely for your erring view of only the elect. Christ’s death was efficient for all sinners. [Hebrews 2:9] Now defy the plain teaching of the Word of God by saying that He did not ‘ . . . taste death for every person.’
Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Romans 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

At least be glad that you lived long enough to see ‘Howdy Duddy.’ But since you were in a serious mode a couple of days ago, let me put it this way. The Lord of perfect justice does not select some for the regions of the damned. As you quoted all by yourself in your post, ‘He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.’
quote:
________________________________________
________________________________________

Adam and Eve were not the only ones with free will. Read Revelation 22:17f] ‘And whosoever will . . . ’ That should be close enough to ‘free will.’
________________________________________
________________________________________

If you do not favor my Ezekiel passage then try again to except Isaiah chapter fourteen, twelve through sixteen.

________________________________________

You show your limitedness in your maturity in the faith by saying that we do not know the origin of Satan. Study Isaiah chapter fourteen. Get back to me and let me know if you accept the truth as found in this passage.

Brother Berrian

 

The words that start out, Hosea 2:23 in my post were words that I failed to delete from your posting. My mistake.

Ray

 

Well you disagree with Scripture. The Apostle Paul tells us in Ephesian 1:3-6:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Paul states that God chose, that God predestinated us unto adoption, and that God made us accepted in the beloved. Paul does not say that we did anything. Furthermore, the Apostle Paul tells us in Romans 8:28-30:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Please note what Paul writes in verse 30. Also Paul tells us in Romans 9:18-24:

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Again you disagree with Scripture. Jesus Christ tells the two disciples on the road to Emmaus in Luke 24:25-27:

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Now did Jesus Christ establish the Church in its New Testament form or did He not? Did he die for the Church or did He not? The Apostle Paul tells us in Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The Apostle Paul [whom some of the dispensational mindset claim is the only one to whom the Church was revealed] also tells us in the following passages:

Acts 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Now did Paul preach the Church or didn't. If he preached the Church then he tells us from his own mouth that he preached what Moses and the prophets said would come, the Church in its New testament form.

It seems that some of the dispensational mindset are still in the same position as the two disciples on the road to Emmaus.

The Spirit regenerates or makes spiritually alive those who are spiritually dead. They then become aware that they are sinners. The Spirit gives them the faith through which they are able to believe. It is true that many receive the Gospel call as demonstrated by the parable of the sower, however, only the elect receive the effectual call and that call follows regeneration.

The "whosoever will" are only those who have been regenerated. You are a ThD so I assume you are familiar with the writings of a Baptist preacher of the 19th Century called John Dagg. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

You made a similar point when you quoted Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Again you are taking the passage out of context. Isaiah 14:4 tells us That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Also please note the verses following those you reference. I will just quote the passage for your edification,

Isaiah 14:12-16:
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Now verse 16 states that Lucifer was a man. Is Satan a man? You stated earlier that he was a fallen archangel.

I have responded to your remarks concerning Isaiah 14 above. As for spiritual maturity: Perhaps the most spiritually immature thing a person can do is take Biblical passages out of context. You have done this, particularly in reference to the passage from Ezekiel concerning the king of Tyrus and the passage from Isaiah concerning the kinh of Babylon, and that from a ThD!!!!!!!!!???????????

 

Oldregular posted, Eph 1:3-6

Why did you stop at verse 6? I suppose it is because you use those 3 verses as a proof text in support of proving "the doctrine of election"!

HOWEVER, The context of Paul's statements includes verses 13 and 14, in which Paul switches 'from' talking about the Apostles who were chosen before the foundation of the world to bring God's gospel to the nations making disciples, 'to' the Ephesian believers whom he is addressing, declaring them to be fruit of the effort of those who are described in verses 3-12. And How did they become that fruit? Through hearing the message of the truth and the gospel, just like ALL OF US WHO ARE LIKEWISE BELIEVERS, HAVE DONE! We are "elect" through our FAITH in God!

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones!