If Regeneration is instantaneous, why do some grapple with faith for a long time?

[Allan]

It was a pleasant discovery for me, when I became Reformed, to see that a great majority of early Baptists were basically of similar beliefs.

It only takes a little study of early baptist history to know this is an exageration. While there were many who held to the particular view there were many who did not. The arm swung different ways (as to whos view was the main opinion) this is depending on the time period and even at times the amount persecution agianst the opposing view.

 

[kyredneck]

I never said he was unrighteousn AND walking by faith. Stop trying to 'interpret' what I say and just use simple conprehesion skills.

I stated he was an unrighteous man that God called out of Mesopotamia. Note that I highlighted 'called out' which is refering to God's calling - prior to his obedience. IOW - He was unrighteous prior to God's calling and his obedience. When he left (or as I stated 'since he left'), he did so by faith, and thus he was walking in obedience and no longer unrighteous.

Well, that's about as clear as mud, but no matter.

Melchizedek declares him as "Abram of God Most High', and that's good enough for me. AND, that was BEFORE the account given of his believing in Gen 15.

 

[asterisktom]

It only takes a little study of early baptist history to know this is an exageration. While there were many who held to the particular view there were many who did not. The arm swung different ways (as to whos view was the main opinion) this is depending on the time period and even at times the amount persecution agianst the opposing view.

Well, I guess we differ then. Even as I was looking just now over several sites I saw this acknowledgment in many of them that Reformed or Calvinistic was the majority view. Just one example:
http://www.founders.org/library/reform.html


Yes, I realize that it is a Reformed site. Also, sites that are not Reformed, when tackling the same question, tend to emphasize the diversity of Baptist beginnings. If they could, I suppose, there are some who would deny the existence altogether of Reformed Baptists (not saying you would do that), but the evidence is just too strong.

Another good indication of the relative strength in numbers of either group is in the creeds and confessions written.

 

[TCGreek]

Don't believe the neatly packaged positions of Calvinism at every turn.

God is not so boxed in as Calvinists would have us believe.

P.S. I'm a Calvinist.

 

[asterisktom]

Don't believe the neatly packaged positions of Calvinism at every turn.

God is not so boxed in as Calvinists would have us believe.

P.S. I'm a Calvinist.

If you are referring to the one site I cited, I agree. I didn't want to give a whole bunch of links however.

I am not a Calvinist.

 

[zrs6v4]

Don't believe the neatly packaged positions of Calvinism at every turn.

God is not so boxed in as Calvinists would have us believe.

P.S. I'm a Calvinist.

I like this statement :thumbsup:

 

[Allan]

Well, that's about as clear as mud, but no matter.

Melchizedek declares him as "Abram of God Most High', and that's good enough for me. AND, that was BEFORE the account given of his believing in Gen 15.

Of course it was before Gen 15, I speaking of Gen 12:4 whereby Abram begins his walk, by faith, which was also BEFORE meeting good ol' Mel.

You still haven't, and apparently won't, come near this fact. But that isn't my real point, mainly just as side issue. The FACT is that scripture states Abraham was declared righteous NOT prior to faith but BECAUSE of his Faith.

That is just an issue you will have to come to terms with.

 

[SolaSaint]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you here, but I 'am' curious..

Do you believe that a person can be regeneration for week, months, even years before coming to faith in Christ for their eternal salvaiton ?

I only ask since the mainline Reformed is and has been that regeneration and faith are almost instintanious with no discernable time lapsing between the two events.

Alan,

I really don't know, but I believe it can take some time, but I'm like you said of the Reformers, it is probably almost instantaneous. I don't believe God will allow you to wallow in sin for the Apostle John said anyone born of God will not sin; or continue sin as is said by most scholars. It's kind of a mystery according to Jesus when He said in John 3:8, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." :thumbs:

 

[pinoybaptist]

Of course it was before Gen 15, I speaking of Gen 12:4 whereby Abram begins his walk, by faith, which was also BEFORE meeting good ol' Mel.

You still haven't, and apparently won't, come near this fact. But that isn't my real point, mainly just as side issue. The FACT is that scripture states Abraham was declared righteous NOT prior to faith but BECAUSE of his Faith.

That is just an issue you will have to come to terms with.

Nobody is truly righteous, as God defines righteousness before Him.
Isaiah said it: all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before thee.
Paul reaffirmed it: not by our righteousnesses which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

All of God's people's righteousnesses are in Christ, not out of Him.
Their acceptance as holy and faultless or blameless before God is because of Christ. Accepted in the beloved, is the term used by Scripture.

Any declaration of God regarding anyone of His people is because of their standing in Christ, not out of, and not inspite of them.

Abraham's faith is proof of his righteousness IN Christ, of his being a regenerate son of God.

If anyone can be accepted and declared righteous by God because of inherent faith in that anyone, then Christ's blood and death are meaningless.

 

[Winman]

If anyone can be accepted and declared righteous by God because of inherent faith in that anyone, then Christ's blood and death are meaningless.

What do you think faith is, a supernatural force? Faith is impossible without an object of faith.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

A person doesn't simply possess faith. There has to be an object to express faith in, that is what Paul is asking here, how can a person possibly believe in Christ if they have never heard of him? Why didn't Paul ask "how shall they believe if they have not been regenerated?". Paul must have overlooked that, and seems to only think that a person needs to hear of Christ to have faith. Careless Paul.

Abraham believed God when God gave a promise to him, that is what the scriptures say. God's word or promise to Abraham was the object of his faith, faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17)

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham believed God's word, this is when his faith began. This happened while he was in Mesopotamia.

Acts 7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

This was in Genesis 12, well before Abraham met Melchizedec in chapter 14.