preacher4truth
Active Member
:thumbs:
Hey our little girl gets a kick out of that Rudolph picture and now I have to tell Rudolph he's too young to drink since you 'enlightened' me. :laugh: :tongue3:
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If repentance is necessary for eternal life...(then why)?
- Thread starter HungryInherit
- Start date
:thumbs:
Hey our little girl gets a kick out of that Rudolph picture and now I have to tell Rudolph he's too young to drink since you 'enlightened' me. :laugh: :tongue3:
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Personally, I think all of you have missed the point, with the exception of a couple of members. If any of you are saying that the sinner must first repent, have a change of mind, and stop sinning in order to get saved, then you're all wet. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is obvious that the Bible doesn't teach that at all, regardless of what certain esteemed members have implied regarding the "overall view" of what God's word says. The "overall view" doesn't support that as biblical doctrine either.
We are not saved from the righteous judgment of God by no longer committing sin (an utterly hopeless undertaking in the first place) and doing good -- that would be salvation by works. We are saved from our sins by trusting in Christ, who bore our sins in his body on the cross, not by ceasing sin and doing what is right. When we receive Christ we are then justified by faith, and it is the work of God to regenerate us which then enables us to turn from our sins. Therefore, repentance is the result of regeneration (salvation), not the cause of it.
On the other hand, repentance is necessary for salvation in the sense that we cannot be saved from God's righteous judgment without changing our minds about sin, without turning from it and seeking to honor God.
Repentance is most definitely part of the gospel message, but we have to make sure that we do not make the mistake of saying that our salvation is because of our repentance. Again, we do not want to say that our salvation is a result of our stopping the doing of what is wrong and turning to do what is right. It didn't work for the Jews as a "stand-alone" methodology of "salvation," and it won't work for us be adding it to the finished work of Christ on the cross.
We are not saved from the righteous judgment of God by no longer committing sin (an utterly hopeless undertaking in the first place) and doing good -- that would be salvation by works. We are saved from our sins by trusting in Christ, who bore our sins in his body on the cross, not by ceasing sin and doing what is right. When we receive Christ we are then justified by faith, and it is the work of God to regenerate us which then enables us to turn from our sins. Therefore, repentance is the result of regeneration (salvation), not the cause of it.
Ezekiel 36, NASB
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 “And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
James 1
17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 “And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3
8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
James 1
17 Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.
18 In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
On the other hand, repentance is necessary for salvation in the sense that we cannot be saved from God's righteous judgment without changing our minds about sin, without turning from it and seeking to honor God.
Luke 13
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Acts 2
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 17
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent."
3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Acts 2
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 17
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent."
Repentance is most definitely part of the gospel message, but we have to make sure that we do not make the mistake of saying that our salvation is because of our repentance. Again, we do not want to say that our salvation is a result of our stopping the doing of what is wrong and turning to do what is right. It didn't work for the Jews as a "stand-alone" methodology of "salvation," and it won't work for us be adding it to the finished work of Christ on the cross.
Tom Butler
New Member
In 1947, when I was nine years old, one Sunday morning during the invitation i came under heavy Holy Spirit conviction. Up to that point I had heard a bunch of sermons on Hell, a bunch of Sunday school lessons, went through a bunch of invitations, but never had I understood what it meant to be lost. The Holy Spirit suddenly illuminated my mind, applied my sin to me, made me aware of the consequences, and began to draw me, creating a desire for that right relationship with God.
(Now as a 9-year-old, I didn't think in those terms. In fact, I'd never given any thought to it at all. Only looking back did I realize what was happening).
At any rate, all this scared the living daylights out of me, and down the aisle I went in tears.
My pastor at North Jackson (Tennessee) Baptist Church, Bro. Ralph Kerley, asked me why I came. I said I wanted to be saved.
He began to question me. Do you understand that you are a sinner? Yessss.
Do you understand that sinners go to hell? Yessss
Are you sorry for your sins? Yessss
Do you trust Christ and Him alone for your salvation? Yessss
Sit down right over there.
Looking back, I remember that Bro. Kerley never asked me to pray for salvation. He never took me down the Roman Road .
He simply asked me if I was sorry for my sins and did I trust Christ to save me. That was it.
That said, I think it is perfectly scriptural for a lost person to ask God to save him. The publican did when he prayed "God me merciful to me, a sinner."
Nor do I have a problem with the Roman Road, since it is a Biblical aid to helping a lost person understand where he stands before the Lord, and points him to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.
We simply have to be careful to not make the Sinner's Prayer some magic words to say at the end of the sales pitch.
(Now as a 9-year-old, I didn't think in those terms. In fact, I'd never given any thought to it at all. Only looking back did I realize what was happening).
At any rate, all this scared the living daylights out of me, and down the aisle I went in tears.
My pastor at North Jackson (Tennessee) Baptist Church, Bro. Ralph Kerley, asked me why I came. I said I wanted to be saved.
He began to question me. Do you understand that you are a sinner? Yessss.
Do you understand that sinners go to hell? Yessss
Are you sorry for your sins? Yessss
Do you trust Christ and Him alone for your salvation? Yessss
Sit down right over there.
Looking back, I remember that Bro. Kerley never asked me to pray for salvation. He never took me down the Roman Road .
He simply asked me if I was sorry for my sins and did I trust Christ to save me. That was it.
That said, I think it is perfectly scriptural for a lost person to ask God to save him. The publican did when he prayed "God me merciful to me, a sinner."
Nor do I have a problem with the Roman Road, since it is a Biblical aid to helping a lost person understand where he stands before the Lord, and points him to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.
We simply have to be careful to not make the Sinner's Prayer some magic words to say at the end of the sales pitch.
The acceptance of a change in mind definition is so unmanly. Isn't it one of those elements that all married men know and experience; that women have the right to change their mind at any whimsicality? 
More seriously though, this thread seems to express limits of a definition of repentance to merely intellectual exercise.
Repentance is not JUST a change of mind, but a change of the thinking caused by a change of purpose. Without the core change of purpose, the repentance is nothing but the imposition of worldly sorrow.
This is important, because unfortunately some have been schooled that the "change of mind" is accurate, when the actual word (Greek) includes not only the change of mind, but also change of heart.
True repentance is a conversion, a transformation of the thinking. Such exercise cannot come from the heart that expresses the former desires and purposes; it must emerge from a core change which revolts against the former thinking resulting in a complete intellectual change of thinking and a change of direction.
The change of thinking and change of direction are the RESULTS not the catalyst of true repentance. They are the outward displays of the change of the inner man.
Just as a dog will return to the vomit because it is a dog, so will intellectual repentance return to the former desires and excess. There is no change of the nature and character of the dog.
However, a butterfly cannot return to a caterpillar life - Even if it could it has no such desire because of the "metamorphic" change causing not only a physical change in appearance but also a change of thinking and desire.
More seriously though, this thread seems to express limits of a definition of repentance to merely intellectual exercise.
Repentance is not JUST a change of mind, but a change of the thinking caused by a change of purpose. Without the core change of purpose, the repentance is nothing but the imposition of worldly sorrow.
This is important, because unfortunately some have been schooled that the "change of mind" is accurate, when the actual word (Greek) includes not only the change of mind, but also change of heart.
True repentance is a conversion, a transformation of the thinking. Such exercise cannot come from the heart that expresses the former desires and purposes; it must emerge from a core change which revolts against the former thinking resulting in a complete intellectual change of thinking and a change of direction.
The change of thinking and change of direction are the RESULTS not the catalyst of true repentance. They are the outward displays of the change of the inner man.
Just as a dog will return to the vomit because it is a dog, so will intellectual repentance return to the former desires and excess. There is no change of the nature and character of the dog.
However, a butterfly cannot return to a caterpillar life - Even if it could it has no such desire because of the "metamorphic" change causing not only a physical change in appearance but also a change of thinking and desire.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
He didn't need to. You were already at the point of knowing and understanding Who Jesus is and why you needed Him.
preacher4truth
Active Member
No one here has stated the above, you're simply showing your complete misunderstanding of what we actually stated and of biblical truth.
No one has made that mistake either. You are merely erecting straw man arguments then attacking them. You really should stop teaching others as you still show a severe misunderstanding of soteriology and specifically the doctrine of repentance. This post of yours further proves that persons can be in church for years, be taught for years and still remain oblivious to truth.
How do you go from Full Bird ........ ahhhhh, nevermind
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
You might want to review the thread before sticking to that statement.
preacher4truth
Active Member
I have and you misunderstand as I am simply looking at what you've done: that is to tie that false accusation about the meaning of repentance to the wrong individuals who've made no such claim. No one in that group has said that a sinner must repent i.e. stop sinning &c as you've claimed to 'get saved'. And keep in mind repentance is the gift of God, it is not something a person 'does' but is evidence of salvation.
You then followed up your above misnomer with rejecting the 'overall view' (your wording) by disingenuously tying it to your falsely accused definition of repentance above. No one who's used this 'rightly dividing the Word of God' method has even remotely suggested that the definition of repentance is what you've made it out to be. What you've attempted is to tie a straw man to a partial truth and made pretense you rebutted something. You haven't, all you've done is misrepresent others.
You've also shown a capacity to reject and undermine the solid foundation of practicing 2 Timothy 2:15 only because you tie it to a caricature of what some 'esteemed' brothers on here actually believe about repentance. We've called the OP on his error and it is a failure to rightly handle the Word.
Rightly handling the word shows the OP to be in serious error. No repentance = no salvation, and I'm talking the correct view of repentance, not your mischaracterization thereof, and, btw, I believe Scripture to support that it is also a change of mind concerning sin, and a turning from that. Scripture supports this view and doesn't need to use the word repentance to prove it, and again, it is something the Spirit of God does in the believer, and repentance of sin is a lifestyle of a believer.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
Repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are placed in a person by the Holy Spirit at the time of regeneration which will always be there. Christians are repenting people all the days of their life, it is not just a one time occurrence. Faith will also always be in a Christian though sometimes only a flicker, it will always be as a well of water springing up unto everlasting life.
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preacher4truth
Active Member
:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:
(Sure wish I could "like" posts, like Facebook) :thumbsup:
Anyone who thinks "repentance" is not necessary for salvation is sadly needing more study of the Word. It is a gift of God.
N
NE will have godly repentance of sin without the unseen work of the holy Spirit of God. NNE will have saving faith from sin without the unseen work of the holy Spirit of God.
Do I understand how it all works? Nope. Like Nick (Pharisee meeting with Jesus) I can only see the result of this unseen gifting of the Spirit to my soul. To me, when I wept over sin and feared hell and called on Jesus to save me, it was all ME. MY choice. MY decision. MY faith.
Took a few years to get the focus and see, like Jonah, "Salvation is of the Lord" and the "my, my, I" were just weak responses from a heart changed by God.
Anyone who thinks "repentance" is not necessary for salvation is sadly needing more study of the Word. It is a gift of God.
N
NE will have godly repentance of sin without the unseen work of the holy Spirit of God. NNE will have saving faith from sin without the unseen work of the holy Spirit of God.Do I understand how it all works? Nope. Like Nick (Pharisee meeting with Jesus) I can only see the result of this unseen gifting of the Spirit to my soul. To me, when I wept over sin and feared hell and called on Jesus to save me, it was all ME. MY choice. MY decision. MY faith.
Took a few years to get the focus and see, like Jonah, "Salvation is of the Lord" and the "my, my, I" were just weak responses from a heart changed by God.
(Sure wish I could "like" posts, like Facebook) :thumbsup:
Anyone who thinks "repentance" is not necessary for salvation is sadly needing more study of the Word. It is a gift of God.
N
Do I understand how it all works? Nope. Like Nick (Pharisee meeting with Jesus) I can only see the result of this unseen gifting of the Spirit to my soul. To me, when I wept over sin and feared hell and called on Jesus to save me, it was all ME. MY choice. MY decision. MY faith.
Took a few years to get the focus and see, like Jonah, "Salvation is of the Lord" and the "my, my, I" were just weak responses from a heart changed by God.
:applause::applause:That will be thetestimony of all in heaven.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Nope. You've misunderstood my intent. Perhaps I should have said this in the post, but that first paragraph wasn't addressed to everyone on this thread, only one in particular, and not by name because I've resolved not to "call anyone out" without cause. The rest of the thread was for everyone, to help clarify the conversation. That is all it was. There were no general accusations intended, and I don't beleive you can argue with the content of that post. Therefore, you can let it go, and we can get on with fellowship.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Yep. Now your denying your intent and thanks but I understood it perfectly. Your post was to malign those who hold to an over all Biblical view of repentance as you put your sights on them as well as the straw man definition you gave of repentance, tying them together even though these posters may well be 'esteemed' here (your language).
I have little tolerance for those who are disingenuous as you are being at this particular time. Learn to man up and own up to your statements which are clearly seen by all.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Oh ... wait.
You were serious??
Well, "Ignore" is about six inches in
(Sure wish I could "like" posts, like Facebook) :thumbsup:
Anyone who thinks "repentance" is not necessary for salvation is sadly needing more study of the Word. It is a gift of God.
N
Do I understand how it all works? Nope. Like Nick (Pharisee meeting with Jesus) I can only see the result of this unseen gifting of the Spirit to my soul. To me, when I wept over sin and feared hell and called on Jesus to save me, it was all ME. MY choice. MY decision. MY faith.
Took a few years to get the focus and see, like Jonah, "Salvation is of the Lord" and the "my, my, I" were just weak responses from a heart changed by God.
Think some in the lordship salvation area though have "overempasised" repentence, as they at times seem tobe advocating that unless a person has fully confessed and repented of all know sin, and have firly established jesus Lordship over their entire lives, not really been saved!
My understanding is that God, at time on conversion, wants us to repent of trying to get right with Him by our human efforts and works, and trust totally unto jesus, RHEN we start the life long process of having more and more turned over to "Lordship of Christ!"
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Amen! Others seem to want to claim they have not denied the basis of this statement while vigorously defending the diametric opposite of it.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Interesting as some on here say they were never at enmity with God, always loved Him and were not those mentioned in Romans 3:11-18
Faith is God's gift.
Repentance is God's gift. The two aforementioned gifts of God are the evidence of salvation and not the cause. Your view sounds hyper-synergistic, which is why it will be widely accepted by those who have problems in their understanding of soteriology, repentance, faith and the Gospel.