If the Universe was created in 6 literal 24 hour days...

[quantumfaith]

A good primer for a great book on the concept of Time and the relationship of God to time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNLKcq6JjYk

 

[Aaron]

Aaron that still makes angels eternal before time?

Yes, but some here don't understand that.

 

[AVL1984]

Ah, now these are some of the ideas that I had been looking for, especially for certain ones that have been laid out...It is indeed true that God has laid out what He wants us to know about OUR place in the universe as man...and then comes in my neighbor and asks, "Has HE?...Where?" Then I have another point out where one of the posters has stated "Satan being cast from Heaven is a future event....I agree with this...yet he points to where Christ is telling the disciples that He saw Lucifer cast out as lightening from the heavens. It's good discussion and I appreciate it. Please, do not stop on my account of not applying to every post. It's hard to do when one is still on dial-up..so, please, continue. The comments and views are very interesting and the suggestions on reading materials is interesting to me as well.

Blessings

 

[Alcott]

How was there any before, if the phrase, "before time" has any meaning?

 

[Winman]

Ah, now these are some of the ideas that I had been looking for, especially for certain ones that have been laid out...It is indeed true that God has laid out what He wants us to know about OUR place in the universe as man...and then comes in my neighbor and asks, "Has HE?...Where?" Then I have another point out where one of the posters has stated "Satan being cast from Heaven is a future event....I agree with this...yet he points to where Christ is telling the disciples that He saw Lucifer cast out as lightening from the heavens. It's good discussion and I appreciate it. Please, do not stop on my account of not applying to every post. It's hard to do when one is still on dial-up..so, please, continue. The comments and views are very interesting and the suggestions on reading materials is interesting to me as well.

Blessings

No one said a thing about Jesus saying he saw Lucifer fall from heaven as lightning. Besides that, Jesus NEVER said that, he said he saw Satan fall.

So, you are not really looking for answers here, you just want us to jump through hoops to entertain you? Got better things to do.

 

[JPPT1974]

God is indeed eternal. But the world and everything in it will go away. When God sends back Jesus Christ to the earth to get us all!

 

[prophet]

God is a spirit.
God dwells in Eternity.
Angels are spirits.
Angels dwell in Eternity.

Time was created....for us.

There is no such thing as "before time", in Eternity, the state is ever present.

Jn 4:24
24 God is a Spirit:and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Isa 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One
that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy;
I dwell in the high and holy place,
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to revive the spirit of the humble,
and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Heb 1:7
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Jn 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

 

[Van]

In the beginning God existed eternally and nothing either physical or spiritual had been created. No Angels! Then God created the heavens and the earth. Thus this is the earliest the heavenly host (Angels before they fell) could have been created. So using the 24 hour day view, the angels could have been created on day one. Now on day eight or later, after Adam and Eve were created, Satan (now fallen and acting as an adversary) temps Eve.

So our first problem is whether or not to assume beings created and existing in the spiritual realm experience physical time, or some sort of spiritual time. If spiritual time does not occur at the same rate as physical time (for example at the speed of light, time stands still) then plenty of "time" would be available for whatever you want to speculate occurred between day one and after day seven.

But to say it again, the Bible does not tell us, in fact the Bible tells us we do not know.

Speculation is the mother of false doctrine.

 

[AVL1984]

No one said a thing about Jesus saying he saw Lucifer fall from heaven as lightning. Besides that, Jesus NEVER said that, he said he saw Satan fall.

So, you are not really looking for answers here, you just want us to jump through hoops to entertain you? Got better things to do.

Lucifer/Satan...same difference? And if I was looking for people to "Jump through whoops" for me, I'm sure I could find a more lively place and receive a much better attitude, even from those who don't know me. I may have just come back here to this forum after a five year absence, but can certainly see the same old attitude in certain posters. If you've got better things to do, then, please, friend, go ahead and do it. I take no offense. Just like everyone else, I have other things to do, but, I still take an interest in God and those who are truly asking, and will go to what lengths I have to to help them find their answers if I don't have all of them which I have admitted on these forums many times that I don't. I mean, nobody is twisting your arm to participate, even to be rude and obnoxious. I asked HONEST questions, and YOU make false judgements. Really obvious why so many have left the church. I certainly hope you're not a pastor!

 

[AVL1984]

I would definitely like to thank those who have answered seriously here and helped me to study further and given me other avenues to help me help others God bless you.

Moderators, if I have been inconsiderate in my post to "Winman", I ask YOU to please make the corrections or deletion of the post. But, as you have said in years past, some posters need to be taken to task, and that includes me.

With sincere thanks, and apologies if I'm wrong....

Brother T

 

[AVL1984]

In the beginning God existed eternally and nothing either physical or spiritual had been created. No Angels! Then God created the heavens and the earth. Thus this is the earliest the heavenly host (Angels before they fell) could have been created. So using the 24 hour day view, the angels could have been created on day one. Now on day eight or later, after Adam and Eve were created, Satan (now fallen and acting as an adversary) temps Eve.

So our first problem is whether or not to assume beings created and existing in the spiritual realm experience physical time, or some sort of spiritual time. If spiritual time does not occur at the same rate as physical time (for example at the speed of light, time stands still) then plenty of "time" would be available for whatever you want to speculate occurred between day one and after day seven.

But to say it again, the Bible does not tell us, in fact the Bible tells us we do not know.

Speculation is the mother of false doctrine.

Speculation is indeed the mother of false doctrine, Van. That is why I not only check the Bible, other sources ie commentaries and other pastors or Christians who might be more learned than myself, and try to get the truth, or as close to the truth as possible so as not to damage the cause of Christ.

Thank you for the truths about Angels and heavens and the earth. I've tried to make that point to some many times, but, for some it's hard to grasp because we think with a finite mind.:thumbs:

 

[TCassidy]

Wow, Tony, you really know how to start a discussion!

I believe the language, grammar, and syntax of Genesis mitigates very strongly in favor of literal days (perhaps a few seconds shorter than today's day due to the slowing of the Earth's rotation since it was created).

I also believe the Angelic Host was created prior to the rest of the space-time continuum, and their creation is included in the "In the beginning God created" of verse 1.

However, because Angels are able to exist in Heaven, which is outside of the space-time continuum, duration for them is much different than for us. To an observer within the space-time continuum 6 days would have passed, but in eternity those 6 days would be of indefinite duration and sequence.

I accept the literal nature of Genesis 1 and believe in 6 literal days of creation. However, I reject Bishop James Ussher's "Creation was in 4004 BC." He arrived at that date by counting the years between the "begats" in the genealogies of Genesis. His error, of course, was assuming the genealogies were closed when, in fact, they are open.

So, when was Creation? I don't know. I would be surprised to find it was less than 10,000 years ago, or more than 100,000.

There has been some research in the past several years into the possibility that the speed of light has decayed roughly parallels the Doppler shift, but that is still highly speculative.

So, I think I answered the first part of your question in that I believe the Angelic Host were created as part of the "In the Beginning" of Genesis 1:1, and fell sometime before Genesis 1:31 when all of Creation was still "very good."

As to when Adam fell, that is unclear from the text of Genesis. The soonest would have been day 7 (everything was still "very good"), and the latest would have been 120 years(Seth was born when Adam was 130), as Cain and Abel were conceived after the fall and were old enough to work with crops and animals.

 

[AVL1984]

Well, TCassidy, you know me, I can only be who I am! I agree with your statement. I have waited for all of that to come together in one post to try to make it easier to explain to most of those who I was teaching and still teach from time to time, including my nieces and nephews.
I hope all is well with you and yours, my friend. I haven't seen you since the late 1970's or so when we were at the Youth Rally at Dr. Wenigers church in Bloomington Normal IL. Those were the days!
Blessings on you, Bro, and thank you very much for your input!

 

[TCassidy]

I haven't seen you since the late 1970's or so when we were at the Youth Rally at Dr. Wenigers church in Bloomington Normal IL. Those were the days!

Ah! The Illinois State Youth Conclave. Those were the days! My last time there was, I think, in 1974 or 1975 when Evangelist Glen Shunk preached a powerful message. He died just a few years later, in 1978 if I remember correctly. A great man, great preacher, and a good friend.

Great to see you back!

 

[percho]

Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38 4-7

Is it not at least implied that prior to the foundation of the earth there were some kind of being, other than the one speaking, LORD God

In the beginning God existed eternally and nothing either physical or spiritual had been created. No Angels! Then God created the heavens and the earth. Thus this is the earliest the heavenly host (Angels before they fell) could have been created. So using the 24 hour day view, the angels could have been created on day one. Now on day eight or later, after Adam and Eve were created, Satan (now fallen and acting as an adversary) temps Eve.

So our first problem is whether or not to assume beings created and existing in the spiritual realm experience physical time, or some sort of spiritual time. If spiritual time does not occur at the same rate as physical time (for example at the speed of light, time stands still) then plenty of "time" would be available for whatever you want to speculate occurred between day one and after day seven.

But to say it again, the Bible does not tell us, in fact the Bible tells us we do not know.

Speculation is the mother of false doctrine.

Can we speculate based upon the verses from Job that in this statement of Genesis 1:1 NKJV, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
That the angels must have been included in the creation of the heavens and that must have preceded the creation of the earth in order for the singing and the shouting?

 

[percho]

I am also going to speculate that when God (1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.) created the heavens and the earth that there was light on the earth.

And because in V2 the earth was without form and void and darkness is listed as present on the earth I am going to speculate that when God said let there be light and divided the light that was good from the darkness that was before present, he at that moment established on the earth twelve hours of good light and twelve hours of evil darkness of night as stated in (John 11:9,10 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no (good) light in him.) and that became the evening and the morning, the first day.

I hope my speculation is not the mother of false doctrine.

However it could be but I believe those thoughts would line up with scripture.

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, TCassidy, you know me, I can only be who I am! I agree with your statement. I have waited for all of that to come together in one post to try to make it easier to explain to most of those who I was teaching and still teach from time to time, including my nieces and nephews.
I hope all is well with you and yours, my friend. I haven't seen you since the late 1970's or so when we were at the Youth Rally at Dr. Wenigers church in Bloomington Normal IL. Those were the days!
Blessings on you, Bro, and thank you very much for your input!

I'm just curious Bro. Tony. You may have already answered this elsewhere.
Why do you have a copyright symbol on your posts?

Now back to our regular discussion.

 

[quantumfaith]

John Sailhamer in his book, Genesis Unbound, discusses the phrase, "In the beginning...". He says that it is not a single point in time but a period of time, such as when we say, "In the beginning of a race".

Rob

Deacon,

I have not yet read Sailhammer's work (Genesis Unbound). I have read some of the amazon reviews and was intrigued, particularly by some statements suggesting coherence between literal 7 day creation and old age of the earth and universe. In his research, in order to suggest this coherence, does he address relativistic physics and calculations to arrive at this. (Much like Dr. Gerald Schroeder)?

 

[Van]

Can we speculate based upon the verses from Job that in this statement of Genesis 1:1 NKJV, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
That the angels must have been included in the creation of the heavens and that must have preceded the creation of the earth in order for the singing and the shouting?

No, because the Angels might have been created any time after the heavens were created on day one, until the earth was created. To point to day one is to speculate beyond what the Bible requires.

Secondly, what basis do we have for assuming the Angelic Fall had occurred prior to the earth being formed? I think none.

 

[Yeshua1]

I realize that much of this conversation is by necessity conjecture…but I’m siding, for now, with “In the beginning” referring to Creation as it applies to man and this world…not necessarily angles OR the “gap theory.”

But I also like the idea of ontological planes. Makes me think of hitching a ride on a Tardis. :thumbsup:

So YOU are really the 12th Dr!

Maybe use that tardis to go to Calvary.....