IF Water baptism requirement for salvation, another Gospel?

[preacher4truth]

the bible ALWAYS states that is is by faith in jesus that we are saved, NEVER that water baptism ahs a part in causing us to be reborn, but that it represents what aleady happened, poits towards the name by which we MUST be saved by!

I bet thunkingstiff has 'MINN KOTA' tattooed on him. :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't know why you are being defensive. And I don't know why you acting as thought I've attacked you. I just asked a simple question based on your reply. Ok. I'm curious as to what you think the difference is.
Just a simple question. Thats all. I didn't mean to expose any cracks.

I think your explanation of the difference between the two beliefs are in order before you explain how belief equates to born again. Wow! I haven't even argued a point. Just asking a reasonable question.


Well, since we are discussing statements made by the apostles in the context of the time in which they were speaking, I believe that is important to understand what they were getting at or what they mean.

Well, if a person doesn't believe and in fact has a contrary belief to christianity why be baptized? Particularily when Christianity was new to the world and the sign of one becoming a Christian was baptism, then why, if you believed in the gods or were an Atheist would you be baptized? It would seem to me that not to be baptized would be less risky since at that time being baptized would certianly put a target on your back for persecution by both the Jews and the Romans. Get my drift? :smilewinkgrin:

No defensiveness here, the thing is, your questions were leading as if I made statements that I didn't make.

Your being persecuted statement is a given, yet in context of my actual post there was nothing concerning the apostolic times...yet...I do not believe that every person baptized were all true believers.

Good question. Why do you think people get baptized yet aren't born again nor believers?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

the bible ALWAYS states that is is by faith in jesus that we are saved, NEVER that water baptism ahs a part in causing us to be reborn, but that it represents what aleady happened, poits towards the name by which we MUST be saved by!

But as James says Action completes Faith

and his faith was made complete by what he did

. I agree with you that it is Faith which saves however Faith is not faith unless its acted upon. Is it not true?

 

[preacher4truth]

But as James says Action completes Faith . I agree with you that it is Faith which saves however Faith is not faith unless its acted upon. Is it not true?

No, action proves faith, it doesn't complete it.

We aren't saved by faith, we're saved by grace.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I bet thunkingstiff has 'MINN KOTA' tattooed on him. :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:

I'm sorry I don't get the referrence. I'm sure its funny. I just don't get it. Can you explain it to me?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, action proves faith, it doesn't complete it.

But that's what the Apostle James says.

We aren't saved by faith, we're saved by grace

Grace leads us to faith. So yes you're right.

 

[preacher4truth]

But that's what the Apostle James says.

Grace leads us to faith. So yes you're right.

Actually James is arguing action proves faith.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm sorry I don't get the referrence. I'm sure its funny. I just don't get it. Can you explain it to me?

Google it then you can :laugh: :tongue3: :thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No defensiveness here, the thing is, your questions were leading as if I made statements that I didn't make.

Your being persecuted statement is a given, yet in context of my actual post there was nothing concerning the apostolic times...yet...I do not believe that every person baptized were all true believers.

Good question. Why do you think people get baptized yet aren't born again nor believers?

I used the apostolic time because that was the context of when that verse was actually spoken. It wasn't spoken in the modern context.

I don't know why non-believers would choose to be baptized. In the modern context which is vastly different from the context of when the bible was written I can speculate certain things but they wouldn't have applied two thousand years ago. Such as Baptism is such a societal accepted practice people would do it just to be a part of a group of people they wanted to be with. Or they had a rootless emotional experience but it didn't really develop into faith. And so on an so forth....

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually James is arguing action proves faith.

But he actually says it completes faith and emphasises that point 4 times

Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Google it then you can :laugh: :tongue3: :thumbs:

Ah. I'm fishing then? I like Bass and Pike and Trout. Now I'm hungry!!!

 

[preacher4truth]

Ah. I'm fishing then? I like Bass and Pike and Trout. Now I'm hungry!!!

Yellow Lake Perch are superior to all of them. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Yeshua1]

many times people get baptised because its 'expected/required/part of being a chrsitian " etc...

Usually those taking it not saved hold to either liberal/cultural Chrsitianity!

And saved by faith alone/grace alone is the Gospel message!

paul states that faith in jesus ALONE needed to get us saved, james states that after being saved, we will give evidence that we have been really saved!

 

[preacher4truth]

But he actually says it completes faith and emphasises that point 4 times

Your misunderstanding the meaning. By your meaning and interpretation it forces it to conclude he is saved by works, not by grace.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your misunderstanding the meaning. By your meaning and interpretation it forces it to conclude he is saved by works, not by grace.

That is the mistake of the RCC as regarding salvation, they confuse justification/Sanctification, as they see it basically reversed...

They like to have James speak for their viewpoint, not paul...

Paul/James compliment each other though on this, as Paul states that faith is what God requires from us in order to save us, while james states that once saved we will do good deeds/works to give evidence of being saved by God!

 

[Walter]

In Pope Benedict XVI's new encyclical, "Spe Salvi" we read:

"Life in its true sense is not something we have exclusively in or from ourselves, it is a relationship. And life in its totality is a relationship with him who is the source of life. If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is life itself and love itself, then we are in life. Then we 'live... Our relationship with God is established through communion with Jesus -- we cannot achieve it alone or from our own resources alone."

Yup, the Catholic Church teaches a personal relationship with Christ: The Catechism says:
1428 Christ's call to conversion continues to resound in the lives of Christians. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church who, "clasping sinners to her bosom, [is] at once holy and always in need of purification, [and] follows constantly the path of penance and renewal." This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work. It is the movement of a "contrite heart," drawn and moved by grace to respond to the merciful love of God who loved us first.
1430 Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion.

I think we all could agree that the Pope and the Catechism are good authorities on what the Catholic Church teaches. They are both telling us to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

If water baptism is necessary for salvation, then I guess Quakers and Salvation Army folk are all going to hell.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Your misunderstanding the meaning. By your meaning and interpretation it forces it to conclude he is saved by works, not by grace.

Not at all, but that the fruit of Grace is not only accenting to a faith but a faith that works in love. Ie if works are the fruit of Faith and Faith is the Fruit of Grace then what do you have if there is no fruit at all?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

many times people get baptised because its 'expected/required/part of being a chrsitian " etc...

Usually those taking it not saved hold to either liberal/cultural Chrsitianity!

And saved by faith alone/grace alone is the Gospel message!

paul states that faith in jesus ALONE needed to get us saved, james states that after being saved, we will give evidence that we have been really saved!

You may be right about modern reasons to get baptized. However, in aposotolic times these reasons wouldn't have even been considered. So now when you read that passage in the context of the time it was writen in how do you understand it?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If water baptism is necessary for salvation, then I guess Quakers and Salvation Army folk are all going to hell.

What do you call people who purposely do not do the will of the Father? What do you call people who purposely refuse to do something Jesus said to do? Especially in scripure? Are they saved?