easternstar
Active Member
would you sacrifice an animal every year to atone for your sins? I would expect all PSA advocates to answer in the affirmative.
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If we were still under the law...
- Thread starter easternstar
- Start date
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Why would you expect that? Believers in penal substitutionary atonement don't believe that the sacrifice of animals actually atoned for them. They believe what is written in Hebrews:
“For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.” (Heb 10:4 NKJV)
easternstar
Active Member
Because the concept is the same -- punishung and killing an innocent victim in the place of the guilty so that the guilty can go free.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Yes, but the point is that the blood of the sacrificed animal did not actually take away sins, as the Hebrews verse I quoted makes clear.
easternstar
Active Member
So, what was its purpose then? It supposedly covered sins for a year.
My point is this, especially for those who believe in the concept behind PSA: If you were still under the law, would you sacrifice an animal every year, to atone for your sins? If not, why not? The concepts behind PSA and animal sacrifices under the law are the same, as I stated: punishing and killing an innocent victim in the place of the guilty so that the guilty can go free.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
Their purpose was to point forward to the one perfect sacrifice that actually takes away sins, that of the Lord Jesus Christ. As for your question as to whether, if I were still under the law, I would continue to sacrifice animals, it is not possible for me to put myself i such a hypothetical situation. I hope I would see the sacrifices of animals as intended and look towards the saviour Whose death actually takes away sins. Praise God, that Saviour has come, and has born my sins in His own body on the tree.
easternstar
Active Member
I think some of you are missing my point. Although you do make some good points of your own.
What happened when Father Abraham attempted sacrificing his son? of course he was stopped but was also given a lamb in his sons place. Was that sacrifice necessary. The Jews of the day would say yes. What a waste of life… especially if you believe that all life is precious.
easternstar
Active Member
I agree with you.
Why do you keep placating them? In my eyes that is weakness. The real question is, did Christ have to die to atone for our sins…say it bluntly.
When does the lion lay down with the lamb… have you answered that question and has that ever happened in human lifetime? Not yet would be my answer… but then when?
easternstar
Active Member
In my old age, I have learned to be more gracious with people, even with those that I strongly disagree with. To me, that is not weakness. After all, we all see through a glass, darkly. I have some firm beliefs, but the older I get, the less I know for certain. That has slowly dawned on me in the last year or two.
So your choosing to be tactile vs direct… perhaps that’s your nature. But I’ve been here for a while and have seen many approaches. I’d come hear after years of being an RC and then ( in the day) they were intolerant to Catholics and would bounce them on a wim. At the time I adopted my wife’s Calvinist Presbyterian religion only to find that intolerable as well sso I fought the “Fundimentalists” over doctrine which I fervently believed at the time ( and blood was spilt, egos were shattered, and people moved on. This kinda thing happens here… they are always trying to gin up an arguement because it gets people interested. Stand clear of that trap.
easternstar
Active Member
Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it in mind.
Have you ever studied the early church rifts between Paul and James / Peter? I continue to find it extremely interesting & useful to filling out just how the early church evolved & grew. In fact as I uncover evidence I become more fascinated ( that a guy who never actually know Jesus save persecution of Christians, could command such power to slant doctrine his way. I never understand how Paul the Pharisee could placate Roman’s, after all wasn’t Paul a true JEW… so what goes on here… why do conciliatory to the point of conceding to Roman laws and military?
Stay away from the cows… they provide most of my dairy. I buy from Mennonite in PA and they provide unpasteurized whole milk, butter whole cheese etc. that stuff is on the top of the RFK Jr., pyramid.
If you were still in Jersey, I could hook you up!
easternstar
Active Member
Yes, I've studied those conflicts. An interesting question always to me has been, how much, if any, did Paul aler the teachings of the original apostles and Jesus. Some think he altered them a lot; others think not so much. I believe Paul highly valued his Roman citizenship; it allowed him access and privileges he wouldnt have otherwise had. I highly value many of Paul's writings and teachings, but not some others.