If you are not a Calvinist or an Arminian ...

[Daniel David]

Helen, please answer the following:

1. Did God determine who would be saved before the world began?

2. Did God look into the future to see who would believe?

3. Did God make really good guesses because He doesn't absolutely know the future?

--

If you answered yes to no. 1, you are a Calvinist.

If you answered yes to no. 2, you are an arminian.

If you answered yes to no. 3, you are lost and need salvation.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
Helen, please answer the following:

1. Did God determine who would be saved before the world began?

2. Did God look into the future to see who would believe?

3. Did God make really good guesses because He doesn't absolutely know the future?

--

If you answered yes to no. 1, you are a Calvinist.

Yes, it is quite probable.

If you answered yes to no. 2, you are an arminian.

Not necessarily. It all depends what you mean by Arminian.

If you answered yes to no. 3, you are lost and need salvation.

Nonsense. Salvation does not depend upon “proper” doctrine. Like many other things in life, “it’s not what you know, but WHO you know.”

You really need to bone up on the Scriptures (John 3, Ephesians 2:8-10, and all the other teachings of Jesus) before you declare that someone is not in the Kingdom! The demons have correct doctrine and they tremble, knowing that they are under God's impending judgment. Furthermore, many God-honoring Christians believe in ways compatible with Open-Theism (which I think is what you are so clumsily attacking) and they are certainly in the Kingdom.

[ July 12, 2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[Primitive Baptist]

I think that some have let the doctrine of election cause them to become just a little bit arrogant.

There's no arrogance in election. Election is an humbling doctrine. It shows a person what they are before God and how he is in dire need of God's mercy and grace. The only arrogance is that of the workmongers, or Arminians, who insist they "accepted Christ." There's nothing biblical about that. Christ accepted us.

But I disagree with Calvinists that it is because of the 'perseverence of the saints.' It is because of Christ, first, last and always.

I hate ignorance. Like Bro. Larry stated, you are so uninformed about what Calvinists believe. We believe the saints will persevere because of Christ and His grace working in them, not of something we do. It is Jesus first, last, and always.

[ July 12, 2002, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]

 

[Daniel David]

This would be getting off the subject, so I quickly offer the following:

2 John 1:9a - Holman Christian
Anyone who does not remain in the teaching about Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God.

2 John 1:9a - New King James
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

Pretty clear. Wrong doctrine about God, you are lost.

John 10:4-5 - Holman Christian
The sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. They will never follow a stranger; instead they will run away from him, because they don't recognize the voice of strangers.

John 10:4-5 - New King James
The sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

According to Christ, a sheep of His will continue to hear His voice and not the voice of strangers (non sheep).

So much for using Christ as the criterion for interpreting the Bible.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

I've often thought about that myself.
I was talking to a woman on another board once, and she said that Calvinism makes her sick. How could she be a child of God and hate the TRUTH? So...all of you Calvinists who believe all the elect have to hear and believe...

WHICH GOSPEL DO YOU HAVE TO HEAR AND BELIEVE...CALVINISM OR ARMINIANISM?

 

[Daniel David]

Well, the same can be true of those who knowingly, willingly believe you can lose your salvation. I have a real hard time believing they are saved.

Jesus said, "IF you remain in my words, then you are my disciples indeed."

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
Well, the same can be true of those who knowingly, willingly believe you can lose your salvation. I have a real hard time believing they are saved.

Jesus said, "IF you remain in my words, then you are my disciples indeed."

Do you have a hard time believing the Wesley brothers were saved?

 

[Daniel David]

I didn't say I believe that a person who believes his salvation can be lost is actually lost. I just said I have a HARD time with it.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
This would be getting off the subject, so I quickly offer the following:

2 John 1:9a - Holman Christian
Anyone who does not remain in the teaching about Christ, but goes beyond it, does not have God.

2 John 1:9a - New King James
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.

Of course you’re not giving the context, only the portion of the verse that could be made to sound like it supports your view…

This very short letter is warning about those false teachers of Gnosticism who are preaching a different gospel, a “gospel” that denies Christ has come in the flesh – the gospel of anti-Christ. (It has nothing to do with theories of Calvinism, Arminianism, Open Theism or any other view regarding sovereignty and free will!)

The passage is referring to the perseverance of the saints in the truth that the Incarnation of Jesus is real – He was fully God and fully man. John says that true believers will not be taken in by Gnosticism.

Pretty clear. Wrong doctrine about God, you are lost.

Nope, it is saying something more important and less comprehensive than that… If you trust in the Gnostic Jesus, you have not trusted in the true Son of God. It is not talking about a doctrine that is well within the Christian faith. (Open Theists believe the Bible – often more literally than traditional theists. This is especially true when interpreting the passages that clearly state that God “repented” or changed his mind.)

In addition to twisting this passage, you are ignoring all of the other passages in the New Testament that teach that salvation is a matter of faith in Christ – no matter what you believe about election. How can you be a Calvinist when you think that someone has to do a work (believe Calvinism) to be saved? Or if you think that believing in Calvinism is a natural reaction to becoming a believer, why are you arguing about it since believers [according to hyper-Calvinism] have no control over their faith or beliefs?

[gb]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />John 10:4-5 - Holman Christian
The sheep follow him because they recognize his voice. They will never follow a stranger; instead they will run away from him, because they don't recognize the voice of strangers.

John 10:4-5 - New King James
The sheep follow him, for they know his voice. Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

According to Christ, a sheep of His will continue to hear His voice and not the voice of strangers (non sheep). [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Very true. Why are you spreading bad doctrine like a stranger? (I’m not saying you are lost, but what you are promoting doesn’t stand up to the New Testament and the message of the gospel.

So much for using Christ as the criterion for interpreting the Bible.

I wish you would use Christ to interpret the Bible. Jesus plainly taught that salvation is not found in knowing doctrines and scripture, it is found in Him -- “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.” John 5:39-40

[ July 12, 2002, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[tyndale1946]

Preach the word... Don't strain at a gnat and swallow a camel!... Brother Glen

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
I didn't say I believe that a person who believes his salvation can be lost is actually lost. I just said I have a HARD time with it.

I know...and I asked if you have a hard time believing the Wesley brothers were saved.

Does this answer from you mean 'yes'?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
Larry, the argument is NOT about what title you choose to pin on anyone, but what they believe.

You say you are a biblical Christian. I say I am a biblical Christian. We disagree. Who is right? (Me

). The point is that "biblical Christian" means nothing in this debate. You may try not to leave out any biblical issues but so do I. But we still disagree. That is why these two terms are useful.

You may not hold to some of the arminian points. But as a whole, you are an arminian. YOu deny the key points of Calvinism (total depravity, unconditional election) while accepting the key points of arminianism (conditional election, prevenient grace).

I disagree with Arminians that we can act on our choices,

You will have to explain this one because this seems contrary to everything you ahve said to this point. YOu have insisted that the choice lies with man and he must choose. Yet you here disagree that we can act on our choices ...

So I don't belong in either camp, do I?

Yes ... you are arminian by the commonly accepted definition of the term. You might reject the label but like they say, A rose by any other name still smells the same.

[ July 12, 2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[absturzen]

Greeting Pastor Larry,

Forgot to say hi in another string so I am doing it here.

You might reject the label but like they say, A rose by any other name still smells the same.

This is true on the other side of the fence too. Maybe not so drastically though.

I don't call myself a Calvinist because what it can imply. There's a bunch of things I could disagree with Calvin on concerning other issues. Also there is the 1 Corinthians 1:11-15/1 Corinthians 3:6 issue that comes into play.

Now I always have said, for the purpose of conversation, that I am "Calvinistic" in doctrine so everyone knows where I stand. Other terms are not as well known in outside circles.

It's the word that bothers me and not the (proper) definition of that word. I have learned in time not to let the word "Calvinism" bother me so much. But it wouldn’t be the one I would have chose to describe the doctrine.

But YES, I agree. A person is either on one side or the other no matter what you name the sides.

Stevie

 

[Pastor Larry]

I agree with you Stevie. When i use the term "calvinism" it is a reference only to soteriology and it is used only out of convenience. Since "Paulinist" or "Jesusist" sounds a little wierd, I resort to the modern terminology for it.

However, you are right that there is much of Calvinism with which I take issue.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Primitive Baptist,

Finally, I found a post that I can fully agree with you about. Thank God; it feels really good!

You said, 'It is Christ first last and always.' {or something to that effect}.

You are absolutely correct. We are never saved because of our perseverance, though that is an abundant plus, especially when we stand before the Lord. We are saved because of His perseverence in our regard. We are saved by His intercession. [Hebrews 7:25 & I John 2:d through verse 2a]. Salvation is all of grace.

 

[VoiceInTheWilderness]

Primitive Baptist

So...all of you Calvinists who believe all the elect have to hear and believe...

WHICH GOSPEL DO YOU HAVE TO HEAR AND BELIEVE...CALVINISM OR ARMINIANISM?

Why is it that every Primitive Baptist I have ever met has never learned the difference between the doctrine of election, and the doctrine of salvation? They are not the same. The Bible says we are elected unto salvation.... (2 Thess. 2:13)

Calvinism and Arminianism are simply systems of theology. The gospel is very simply the good news of the death, burial, and ressurection of Christ. I believe that God will honor His word no matter who it comes from.

Preaching is God's means of bringing about the salvation of His elect. God chose a people back in eternity past that would be saved at a specific point in time.

It's not that God needs us necessarilly to do anything, but rather that he has chosen to use us, his preachers, to accomplish his will. We are his chosen means of getting his chosen plans accomplished.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by word of God. How shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[Abiyah]

Calvinism is a new idea to me. I became interest-
ed in it when I saw, after too many years, that
Arminianism was not working in either myself or
the lives of of my peers. However, there are cer-
tain aspects of Arminianism I have not droppped
and certain ones of Calvinism I cannot accept.

Regardless of all that, while it may be difficult
for some to accept that Arminians are saved,
many truly are. Thank you for not making a
blanket statement that they are not! 8o)

From my experience, I think the main differ-
ence between modern Arminians and modern
Calvinists is their definition of sin. From my
experience, Arminians have a very loose defini-
tion while Calvinists have a tighter one. As a
result, Calvinists are more likely and more will-
ing to face and accept the fact of their sins,
whiile if is Horribly Difficult for an Aarminian to
do so.

In the Arminian church where I was once a mem-
ber, there was a lot of questionable stuff going
on that would have been trounced in many Cal-
vinist churches. However, it continued because
unrecognized sin is unforgiven sin, and it is like
a magnet, heaping more and more sin "filings"
upon the old sin "filings." Arminians make the
realization of sin in the life very difficult to face,
because it is a shame, a horror, to admit that
it is there.

I began to realize what was going on just before
the Carlisle son, "We Fall Down, We Get Up"
came out, and how that song caried me through
the rough times as I was looking at my peers from
new "lenses"!

 

[Pastor Larry]

So...all of you Calvinists who believe all the elect have to hear and believe...

WHICH GOSPEL DO YOU HAVE TO HEAR AND BELIEVE...CALVINISM OR ARMINIANISM?

The gospel is not about election and how it works. It is about the acknowledgment of God, sin, and the Savior, and the appropriate response of repentance and faith. I agree that arminian theology does compromise some of the basic truths but it does not distort the gospel beyond recognition.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Helen said there is no Calvinist response to Isaiah 1:18. Well, I am not a Calvinist, but one who believes in the Sovereign Predestinating, Electing grace of God.
Helen, and those like her, take scripture out of context.
Isaiah 1:18 may be quoted when explaining to one seeking forgiveness from God how God is able to forgive sin thru the blood of Christ. But speaking strictly from context, Isaiah 1:18 is for those who are already people of God, those of Israel, and have gone astray.
As for this "God knows who will choose Him" I would like to see Scriptures specifically saying that, and not one where inference alone is used, and if scriptures are given these scriptures must show that the people whom God knows will choose Him must be those not already within the nation of Israel or already within God's direct governance.
Their scripture must show that the people who choose God are from unsaved nations and act based on their own volition (what they call free will) independent of any action on the part of God.

 

[doug44]

I am a Biblical Christian...and i would have to agree with the point that Calvinists seem to want to put a limit on the sovereignty of God. I i find a certain irony that Calvinists will speak of Gods Grace and yet find it offensive to consider that its Gods Grace that allows us to accept or reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Helen stated about being misrepresented in her statements i find that to be a common practice by the calvinistic folks...twisting what others say or just having a mighty tough understanding that not all of Gods people follow the teachings of John Calvin.