If you called him Elder?

[Dr. Bob]

"Elder" is the official title. "Pastor" is used only ONCE in the NT (Eph 4) and that is only a job description of one of the functions of an "Elder".

I am the Teaching Elder at Sovereign Grace, our church.

BTW, an elder's ministry is also described as:

• POIMEN (Ephesians 4:11; I Peter 5:12) "Shepherd of the Flock"
• PRESBUTEROS (I Peter 5:1; Hebrews 14:23) "President of the Assembly"
• EPISCOPOS (Philippians 1:1; I Peter 5:12) "Superintendent of a Work Force"
• DIDASKOLOS (Romans 2:20; I Corinthians 12:28) "Teacher of the School"
• KERUX (I Timothy 2:7; II Timothy 1:11; II Peter 2:5) "Preacher of the Congregation"

 

[Ruiz]

Neither was John Gill:

John Gill, A Body of Practical Divinity:



Andrew Fuller, “On Church Government and Discipline”:



Spurgeon said of the Metropolitan Tabernacle Baptist church:





Spurgeon recognized, as his predecessor Gill had, that large churches needed more than a single pastor/bishop/elder. There was none of today's mandatory-"plurality-of-elders-in-parity"-even-in-the-smallest-Reformed-Baptist-church nonsense.

A couple of notations:

First, calling something nonsense without addressing it theologically using the Biblical text, is nonsense.

Secondly, I do agree that a smaller church with no qualified men would not have more than one Elder. However, if there are qualified people then there should be Elders. The book of Titus says we should appoint Elders in every church. We know that the church of Philippians was probably a small church, but Paul addresses the church with the "overseers" and "Deacons" (verse 1). The church was founded as a result of a few women and the city didn't have enough jewish men to form a synagogue. The town was not a metropolis and congregation was small according to scholars. However, they had "overseers" in the plural, not the singular. In Titus, we see that Elders were to be appointed in every church on Crete. Most of the churches were small. This is the context of the admonition, "if anyone..." in Titus 1:6. That phrase shows that the focus is on the qualifications and not merely how many are in your congregation.

Size is not the issue, the qualifications is the most important. BTW, most at the 1689 LBC were multiple Elders. Many others were as well.

We can argue history, and I would be glad to do that. However, just like all good Baptists, this depends on Scripture.

 

[Jerome]

I am the Teaching Elder at Sovereign Grace, our church.

Is there any other kind of elder besides a teaching elder?

1689 London Baptist Confession (which some here supposedly "hold to"):

XXVI.10
"The work of pastors being constantly to attend the service of Christ, in his churches, in the ministry of the word and prayer, with watching for their souls, as they that must give an account to Him; it is incumbent on the churches to whom they minister, not only to give them all due respect, but also to communicate to them of all their good things according to their ability, so as they may have a comfortable supply, without being themselves entangled in secular affairs; and may also be capable of exercising hospitality towards others; and this is required by the law of nature, and by the express order of our Lord Jesus, who hath ordained that they that preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel."

XXVI.11
"...it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office..."

 

[Ruiz]

Is there any other kind of elder besides a teaching elder?

1689 London Baptist Confession (which some here supposedly "hold to"):

XXVI.10
"The work of pastors being constantly to attend the service of Christ, in his churches, in the ministry of the word and prayer, with watching for their souls, as they that must give an account to Him; it is incumbent on the churches to whom they minister, not only to give them all due respect, but also to communicate to them of all their good things according to their ability, so as they may have a comfortable supply, without being themselves entangled in secular affairs; and may also be capable of exercising hospitality towards others; and this is required by the law of nature, and by the express order of our Lord Jesus, who hath ordained that they that preach the Gospel should live of the Gospel."

XXVI.11
"...it be incumbent on the bishops or pastors of the churches, to be instant in preaching the word, by way of office..."

Jerome,

I hold mostly to the LBC, there are three minor areas I disagree. However, I also studied under one of the most foremost scholars on the LBC, the one who wrote the most respected modern commentary on the LBC. Two things, being entangled in secular affairs is not the same as having another occupation, and that was not the intent of the original authors. Yet, Elders focus is on studying and teaching. Yes, every Elder should be "apt to teach." I believe is that apt is the propensity and doctrinal sturdiness to teach. Paul, for instance, was a tent-maker. That is not what is being excluded from the LBC.

Not every Elder should always be teaching and there is an acknowledgment that you don't have to teach every week. I, again, reject the Presbyterian dichotomy of ruling and teaching Elders. Yet, it is wise to acknowledge some are more gifted than others or have more time than others thus should do more preaching than others. That is obvious and has never been disputed the vast majority of Baptists in history who hold to Elders. Should all Elders be able to rightly divide the Word of Truth? Yes! Should they all be able to correct those who do not hold fast to Doctrine? Yes! Should they all have a part in the teaching ministry? Yes! Should be be equally distributed? Of course not. Should they all be paid by the church? I would like it if they all received some payment from the church, but it is not required.

Thus, the Elders I am proposing is only a single office of men who must meet the qualifications of I Timothy 3 and Titus 1. They must be apt to teach, but they do not have to teach equally. They must be Godly men but they must no all have given to full time vocational study.

Thus, Jerome, I do not see your objections. It seems you have none or that you just wish to show where we contradict others. Is there a Biblical objection that you have about our view? If so, please cite that text. Yet, I see you just trying to show where we may disagree with one another, not any true objection.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

What would you pastor say, if you addressed him as Elder?


This is from a thread OP by Tatter 77 and then specified by Tom Butler - posts # 7 & 8

Salty

Eh, I've been called worse.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Eh, I've been called worse.

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Jerome]

BTW, most at the 1689 LBC were multiple Elders.

How did you arrive that that conclusion?

 

[Jerome]

Re: these schemes to install a caste of elders in Baptist churches

Kenneth Good, in Are Baptists Reformed?, p. 293:

"Baptists abhor the idea of vertical gradations in priestly privileges among believers, all of whom are equally priests before God. Baptists would prefer to speak of the "equality of the membership" rather than to isolate a group of them as somehow "equal." This could very well imply that the elders share an equality which is not enjoyed by other members of the church. In practice the custom tends to create what it presumes to eliminate. Instead of the elevation of one man above the congregation, it does the same to a group of men. Experience indicates that this is what tends to happen in those churches which operate on this basis. An oligarchy of men is created who supposedly grant an equality among themselves which is not enjoyed by other church members."

 

[Ruiz]

How did you arrive that that conclusion?

History! Most of the men there had multiple elders. There were a few who did not, but from my research, they did. My book is in another state, but I believe Sam Waldron's commentary on the 1689 discusses this concerning chapter 26 of the Confession. I know I have heard Dr. Waldron lecture on this and he would attest that most had multiple elders. Nehemiah Cox's church had multiple Elders. Nehemiah was one of the editors of the LBC 1689. Thus, part of the intrinsic foundation of this document was built by people who adhered to plurality.

John Bunyan's church, where he was Pastor, had multiple Elders. The oldest surviving Baptist church building in England, as well, is noted for having a multiplicity of Elders. Benjamin Keach, one of the most famous 1600's Baptist, supported multiplicity of elders, but did distinguish that from plurality. I think his disagreements with the word is extremely minor in today's debate, he believed they were equal but, like me, would have said that it is not necessary for a church to be a legitimate church. I think plurality would not have been an issue for him today as most agree with him.

The first President of the Southern Baptist Convention said, "In review of these scriptures we have these points clearly made. One, that over each church in the New Testament era a plurality of elders was ordained who were designated by the terms elders, bishop, overseer, pastor with the authority of the government of the flock of God.” He later observed of his own era that in general, "“A plurality in the bishopric is of great importance for mutual counsel and aid, that the government and edification of the flock may be promoted in the best manner.”

The Philadelphia Baptist Association did affirm a more defined ruling and teaching Elders while the Charleston Baptist Association (1774) defined the church with a localy "presbytery" but did not differentiate between teaching and ruiling elders, but embraced more of a multiplicity.

William Williams, one of the founding faculty of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary wrote in 1874 that “In most, if not all the apostolic churches, there was a plurality of elders."


On and on... plurality was used by historic and respected Baptists throughout history.

 

[Bob Farnaby]

What would my pastor say? ... He'd probably grin and remind me that he's acouple of years younger than myself.

Bob