If you can walk away from your relationship with Christ

[BobRyan]

I am really in between the conditional and unconditional security of the believer right now. My buddy who believes in unconditional eternal security used the example of spiritual circumcision. Colossians 2:9-17 really addresses it well. It's a work of God, and obviously circumcision can not be undone. My buddy taught me that our soul is saved, but that we will be judged by our works in this sinful body. This was probably the best "once saved always saved" example I have ever heard.

I am still struggling with the extremes. What if one totally denounces the faith after years of bearing fruit for Jesus? Please do not say they never were saved in the first place because I simply do not belive that.

In Matt 18 you have the case of "forgiveness revoked" the King say "I FORGAVE you all that debt". The king argues that in gratitude for the full and complete pardon of all his sins -- the unforgiving servant should have forgiven his fellow servant. Then the king concludes with the fact that the original debt is now returned -- the debt that the servant could not afford to pay.

Christ then says that the moral of of the parable is this "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF YOU do not forgiven others".


And then there is Romans 11 "You stand only by your faith ... you should FEAR for if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you... but he is able to graft THEM in again IF they do not continue in unbelief".

Here you have every possible flavor of the problem for OSAS affirmed in such a way that all thought of OSAS ends.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Nicholas25]

Does Colossians 2:9-15 not prove unconditional eternal security? Can our spiritual circumcision be undone?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Intentional and Non-Accidental

In Matt 18 you have the case of "forgiveness revoked" the King say "I FORGAVE you all that debt". The king argues that in gratitude for the full and complete pardon of all his sins -- the unforgiving servant should have forgiven his fellow servant. Then the king concludes with the fact that the original debt is now returned -- the debt that the servant could not afford to pay.

Christ then says that the moral of of the parable is this "SO shall My Father do to each one of you IF YOU do not forgiven others".


And then there is Romans 11 "You stand only by your faith ... you should FEAR for if He did not spare them NEITHER will He spare you... but he is able to graft THEM in again IF they do not continue in unbelief".

Here you have every possible flavor of the problem for OSAS affirmed in such a way that all thought of OSAS ends.

in Christ,

Bob

I do _NOT_ want to get into attacking my Baptist Brethren any more than I like being attacked...

I think that Bob makes a painful point here.

In BOTH cases it is our attitudes, especially to one another, that cause the problem... (Intentional) Unforgiveness where a clear choice exists, and Haughtiness over others...

Theoretically Possible, Yes, Absolutely. But, God always brings a warning and gives us an option before the point of no return...

As another has said, WHY??? would any rational person who truly knows Jesus do such a thing knowing Our Fathers attitude towards such behaviors????

Thanks Bob, I've never seen this passage actually used in this way.

Mike Sr.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Does Colossians 2:9-15 not prove unconditional eternal security? Can our spiritual circumcision be undone?

Nicholas25:

I am not as educated or intelligent as many who post on this forum. I sometimes find it difficult to come across properly as a humble servant of Christ with the post I make. I have given this topic a great deal of study, thought, and prayer. I thought you might be troubled over this issue based on reading a thread that you were considering a move from Free Will Baptist to Southern Baptist.

You stated earlier that the extremes on each side seamed incorrect. Some people feel as if every sin takes their name out of the Lamb's Book of Life and then a prayer of repentance puts it back. Others think they have liberty to sin at will. The Bible teaches neither extreme. Col 2:9-15 enforces that we can not lose our salvation by works. We did not earn it by works, how could we lose it by them. How were you saved? Your sig says it all.

For by grace you are saved through faith,

I am saved by "faith". John 3 says "whosoever believeth on him". That belief is Faith. Faith is not a work, but a spiritual trust in Christ. I believe the Bible teaches and life confirms that if I I lose that faith, that trust in Christ for my salvation the Gospel becomes "of none effect".

That explains why those who had great testimonies for the Lord at one point fall away later. Can I say they were never saved? Of course not. Can I define a point where they lost it? No, just when they lost that faith. Most of the time the faith is lost long before the ungodly lifestyle appears. Many times people lose their faith in Christ and place it in works. We never see them committing adultery, doing drugs, etc. But their faith is now in their Righteousness and not in the righteousness of Christ. Only faith in Christ brings forgiveness.

 

[Nicholas25]

Nicholas25:

I am not as educated or intelligent as many who post on this forum. I sometimes find it difficult to come across properly as a humble servant of Christ with the post I make. I have given this topic a great deal of study, thought, and prayer. I thought you might be troubled over this issue based on reading a thread that you were considering a move from Free Will Baptist to Southern Baptist.

You stated earlier that the extremes on each side seamed incorrect. Some people feel as if every sin takes their name out of the Lamb's Book of Life and then a prayer of repentance puts it back. Others think they have liberty to sin at will. The Bible teaches neither extreme. Col 2:9-15 enforces that we can not lose our salvation by works. We did not earn it by works, how could we lose it by them. How were you saved? Your sig says it all.

For by grace you are saved through faith,

I am saved by "faith". John 3 says "whosoever believeth on him". That belief is Faith. Faith is not a work, but a spiritual trust in Christ. I believe the Bible teaches and life confirms that if I I lose that faith, that trust in Christ for my salvation the Gospel becomes "of none effect".

That explains why those who had great testimonies for the Lord at one point fall away later. Can I say they were never saved? Of course not. Can I define a point where they lost it? No, just when they lost that faith. Most of the time the faith is lost long before the ungodly lifestyle appears. Many times people lose their faith in Christ and place it in works. We never see them committing adultery, doing drugs, etc. But their faith is now in their Righteousness and not in the righteousness of Christ. Only faith in Christ brings forgiveness.

Thank you brother for your post. Going back to Colossians 2:9-15, if one has been spiritually circumcised, meaning that Christ has surgically (spiritually speaking) saved your soil and placed/hid it in him (Colossians 3:3), how can we uncircumcize ourselves? Many verses used for Eternal Security/OSAS can be refuted with others verses, meaning people who believe in conditional, unconditional, and works salvation can use scripture verses. However, this "spiritual circumcision" seems to be the best explanation for unconditional eternal security that I have ever heard. Other strong OSAS verses seem to be 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. What about 2nd Timothy 2:11-13?

 

[Marcia]

I do _NOT_ want to get into attacking my Baptist Brethren any more than I like being attacked...

I think that Bob makes a painful point here.

Please note that Bob Ryan is not Baptist; he's Seventh Day Adventist. This is the Other Christian Denominations forum, so many non-Baptists post here.

 

[Marcia]

I am still struggling with the extremes. What if one totally denounces the faith after years of bearing fruit for Jesus? Please do not say they never were saved in the first place because I simply do not belive that. .

Why can't you believe that? And does it matter whether you can believe it or not? My best advice here to you, Nicholas, is to not base your doctrine on what seems reasonable or fair to you. We have to go by God's word and we reason from that, not on the basis of how things should be or shouldn't be according to our own ideas.

Why can't you believe that someone who is a professing Christian and turns to evil was never saved? There are many people who profess Christ who seem Christian but are not. They can even seem to "bear fruit" - that is all external. Look at the parable of the wheat and the tares. The tares look just like wheat - only God can tell the difference.

What if one leaves the faith and lives in gross, wicked sin for years? I know we are not saved by works, therefore we can not lose salvation by works, but our works do show where someone's faith is. This is the extreme I am struggling with concerning unconditional eternal security

.

If a Christian starts living in gross sin, the Holy Spirit convicts them. Sometimes they come back in a short time; sometimes it's years. But I think as as long as they are alive, they eventually go back to the Lord. I know many cases of this. But I don't use this as my way of determining truth. I use the Bible.

The danger here is trying to determine truth from examples like you are doing with these cases. Instead, use God's word as the basis for determining truth. God's word teaches eternal security; that is what is true. Don't get distracted by the individual examples you see around you.

Concerning conditional security I am struggling with the question of when is salvation lost? Hebrews 6:4-6 makes it sound like one could not return to Christ, but I struggle with the thought of one not being able to come to repentance. I also struggle with the fact that if we could repent and return to a right relationship with Christ it would be like being born again a second time. I also think about our names being written in the book of life and how God knew before the foundation of the world who was in that book. It's not like he is sitting there with an eraser. It's not like when we get saved he puts our name in that book, but erases it when we walk away from fellowship with him. I am struggling with the extremes. Hebrews 6:4-6 also seem like a "needle in a haystack" verses, and I think we have to be careful to base an entire theology on one or two verses.

The Heb. 6 passage is a hypothetical - it's showing us that one cannot lose one's salvation; that it's impossible to for Christ to die again for that person. Nicholas, read this:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

 

[Marcia]

Here's an excerpt from that link on Heb. 6:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html

The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.

According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. <More>

 

[thegospelgeek]

Thank you brother for your post. Going back to Colossians 2:9-15, if one has been spiritually

circumcised, meaning that Christ has surgically (spiritually speaking) saved your soil and

placed/hid it in him (Colossians 3:3), how can we uncircumcize ourselves? Many verses used for

Eternal Security/OSAS can be refuted with others verses, meaning people who believe in conditional,

unconditional, and works salvation can use scripture verses. However, this "spiritual circumcision"

seems to be the best explanation for unconditional eternal security that I have ever heard. Other

strong OSAS verses seem to be 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. What about 2nd Timothy 2:11-13?

Sorry for the delay in response. I wanted to give much prayer and thought in answering your questions. I won't quote a great deal of scriture since it sounds like you have studied the subject well and know both sides of the argument. I wish everyone would be as diligent.

I'll address 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 first as it is the easiest (in my opinion). This passage makes it clear that our salvation does not lie in our works. They will be tested by fire and burned. yet the man shall be saved because his salvation does not lie in the works but the foundation, which is Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2 11-13 contains many conditional logic statements. If we be dead with Him we live. If we suffer we shall reign. If we deny Him, He will deny us. If we believe not he ramains faithful. I address each although I think your question deals with v13 specifically.

v11 We must die out to sin and live in Christ.

v12a We must suffer "bear our cross" because of our committment to Christ, but it will be worth it.

v12b we deny him, he denies us. Plain and simple. The question becomes, What if we were saved and then deny him? Some say this is impossible (See Marcia's post) I believe that Hebrews 6 teaches it is. I guess one needs to pray, study, and draw a conclusion. I do want to stress that Sister Marcia and I can both ask jesus this question when we get to heaven because neither belief is going to keep us out.

v13 If we do not believe, it does not change who Christ is. He is still the savior of the World, The only begotten of the Father, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. he is the one who was, and is, and is to come. his existance, his faithfulness to his promises does not depend on me. He will remain the same.

Now for the circumcission question from Colossians. I have never heard this uses as an argument for OSAS so I am thankful for you bringing it up. If I understand the argument, it is that once a circumcission is performed how can it be undone. In Colassions Paul is speaking of course of a spiritual circumcission as you know.

In Romans 2:25 he addresses how circumcission can be made uncircumcision, so the argument that once circumcised always circumsised is invalid. But is he talking about physical circumcission here or spiritual? He is speaking to the Jews who have undergone a physical circumcission but never a spiritual one, so they could not undo the spiritual one. So did they become physically uncircumcised? Of course not, so what can it mean? The circumcission they underwent stood as a symbol of their obediance to God. By disobeying the law the broke this sign. I am Spiritually Circumsied by my faith in Christ. Hebrews 11 teaches that our faith is counted to us as righteousness. The Jews lost their circumcission by breaking the means in which they recieved it, the law. I can forfiet mine by refusing the very method by which I recieved it. Christ. 2 Tim 2: 12 If we deny him he will deny us.

With humility and love.

 

[webdog]

I do _NOT_ want to get into attacking my Baptist Brethren any more than I like being attacked...

I think that Bob makes a painful point here.

In BOTH cases it is our attitudes, especially to one another, that cause the problem... (Intentional) Unforgiveness where a clear choice exists, and Haughtiness over others...

Theoretically Possible, Yes, Absolutely. But, God always brings a warning and gives us an option before the point of no return...

As another has said, WHY??? would any rational person who truly knows Jesus do such a thing knowing Our Fathers attitude towards such behaviors????

Thanks Bob, I've never seen this passage actually used in this way.

Mike Sr.

Do not create theology on a parable as Bob does. The parable is speaking of forgiving others because God has forgiven us in Christ, not "forgiveness revoked" loss of salvation he continues to maintain.

 

[thegospelgeek]

As you said, we can use verse after verse to refute either argument. But what if we look at the Bible as a whole? What is the nature of God? What is the purpose of man? John 3 says if we believe we won't perish but if we don't we are condemned. Why do the scriptures urge us to endure and keep the faith? If we can not lose it as some teach then why address it? I don't know the proper terminology but the way I understand the different views is this;

1. You can never lose your faith if you are truly saved. If you do, you were never saved. (Lost)
2. If you were really saved and lose your faith, you will return before death. (Heaven Bound)
3. Once saved you can lose your faith, live in sin with no consequences. (Heaven Bound?)
4. Once saved, you can lose your faith. You are lost so long as you have no faith in Christ.
5. If you are saved then sin you are lost. Of course this only applies to the Big Sins such as murder, adultery and drunkenness. It does not apply to sins of omission, strife, pride, etc. If you repent of the sin you are then saved again and free to repeat the process starting at the beginning. (Heaven Bound, Lost?? Depends on time of day)



I don't buy into #2. First because I don't find it in the scripture and because I have witnessed many people with a strong witness that died in a sinful state. The Bible teaches in many places that we will be known by our witness (I’m too lazy to look them up right now) so that tends to rule out #1. If a Godly man teaches and preaches the truth, then falls away, does that negate his teachings? If not, how did an ungodly man discern spiritual truth?

#3 goes against the very nature of the Gospel.

#4 is the one I think the scripture supports.

#5 is I just made up since that is what many people I talk to seem to believe.

Which of these do you believe? Or are there others? Please correct my assumptions on the basic doctrines of eternal security or conditional security. I read in another post about reformed Arminianism. What is that?

GG

 

[thegospelgeek]

Do not create theology on a parable as Bob does. The parable is speaking of forgiving others because God has forgiven us in Christ, not "forgiveness revoked" loss of salvation he continues to maintain.

I hope it doesn't offend you that I disagree. Christ built much of his theology on parables, but then again he was the author of them so he understood exactly what he was saying.

If the parable teaches that we should forgive because Christ forgave us (which I agree with you on) Then why add the part about the revokation of this debt forgivness. It would have nothing to do with the parable. Did the Holy Spirit need to fill space in the scriptures so it was added?

 

[Bible-boy]

Just bumping this one up in an attempt to see why the thread shows that it contains 4 pages but I can only view 3.

 

[Bible-boy]

Hey there really was a forth page! Don't know why I could not view it until I added my post above.:BangHead:

 

[defenderofthefaith]

1. You can never lose your faith if you are truly saved. If you do, you were never saved. (Lost)

The scripture does not support this in any way and by saying "you were never saved in the first place" is...quite frankly...a pathetic attempt to avoid the question "how did this saved person fall away?"

2. If you were really saved and lose your faith, you will return before death. (Heaven Bound)
3. Once saved you can lose your faith, live in sin with no consequences. (Heaven Bound?)

Haha. Do people seriously...believe this? How sad...

4. Once saved, you can lose your faith. You are lost so long as you have no faith in Christ.

I believe this can mix in with #5

5. If you are saved then sin you are lost. Of course this only applies to the Big Sins such as murder, adultery and drunkenness. It does not apply to sins of omission, strife, pride, etc. If you repent of the sin you are then saved again and free to repeat the process starting at the beginning. (Heaven Bound, Lost?? Depends on time of day)

Romans 6:1-2
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

God knows your not going to be perfect, but to sin as a 'lifestyle' causes you to lose your salvation. Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Can we sin everyday and just say "grace will abound" and not have a truely repentant heart? I think not.

 

[steaver]

The scripture does not support this in any way and by saying "you were never saved in the first place" is...quite frankly...a pathetic attempt to avoid the question "how did this saved person fall away?"

I would not consider the apostle John pathetic. John covered this senario very simplisticly and to the point....

1Jo 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

"Never a Christian to begin with" is a possibility that is clearly taught in the scripture.

God Bless! :jesus:

 

[steaver]

Quote:
2. If you were really saved and lose your faith, you will return before death. (Heaven Bound)
3. Once saved you can lose your faith, live in sin with no consequences. (Heaven Bound?)



Haha. Do people seriously...believe this? How sad...

Sad indeed. There is no such thing as being saved by grace through faith and then one day ceasing to believe Jesus is Lord. Once one is saved (born of God), one has the Spirit indwellment which forever witnesses one's relationship with God as a child....

Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

[steaver]

God knows your not going to be perfect, but to sin as a 'lifestyle' causes you to lose your salvation.

No such text found in the Scriptures. This is a misguided opinion of error.

Can we sin everyday and just say "grace will abound" and not have a truely repentant heart? I think not.

AMEN! I have never heard a born of God Christian ever make such a claim. Anyone calling themselves a Christian who would, might want to examine themselves to see if they have ever been born of God....

2Cr 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Paul understood that some may call themselves Christians and follow the clan, but might have never been born of God (Christ in you, via the Holy Spirit)

 

[BTM]

... Jesus told us in John 10:28 that no one can snatch us from His hand. You are a someone. Therefore, you can not remove yourself from His hand. I am a someone. Therefore, I can not remove myself from His hand.

I'm coming in a little late, and maybe this has already been addressed, but is there not a distinction between the "no one" in John 10:28 and "us"? I do not believe this precludes our separation from Christ by our own deeds, lack of devotion, discouragement, etc.

No other person can separate me from Christ, but if I choose my will instead of His and refuse to correct my course, I will be lost eternally. Demas did this, loving the present world (2 Tim 4:10). If he had forsaken Paul, I think it's reasonable to conclude that he had forsaken Christ as well. If we love the world, the love of God is not in us (1 Jonn 2:15). Demas loved the world. Unless he repented, he was lost.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Great points BTM. :thumbs:

Love denotes choice. Choice denotes the possibility of doing something other than one does under the very same set of circumstances. If it was impossible to leave or abandon the faith, love would be impossible to conceive of.

Faith is much the same. Faith requires an act of the will, and is not a static fixed notion. If one cannot do something other than what it does under the very same set of circumstances, faith is impossible to conceive of as well. The idea that one can have faith yet cannot forsake that faith and do despite the faith one once had, is to embrace concepts concerning faith that are simply erroneous.