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IF You deny original Sin, isn't Virgin Birth Also Denied Too?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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menageriekeeper
Active Member
Wait, are you trying to say that Mary didn't inherit a sin nature??
I'm not certain the Virgin birth is taught as a way to avoid "original sin" and I don't believe God intended to bypass it in that manner. If Christ had a human father AND a human mother, then He couldn't have been fully man while at the same time been fully God. He had to have God as father or He would lose his diety.
My two quick cents...
I'm not certain the Virgin birth is taught as a way to avoid "original sin" and I don't believe God intended to bypass it in that manner. If Christ had a human father AND a human mother, then He couldn't have been fully man while at the same time been fully God. He had to have God as father or He would lose his diety.
My two quick cents...
do you have a Bible verse to back that up? I know of no where in the Bible that it teaches that was the reason. There is a place that speaks of it for the purpose of showing something, but I don't remember the reference right off hand.
No, though I do believe the Bible teaches original sin. The virgin birth also shows a picture of Jesus being God(Holy Spirit) and man (Mary).
What i was aying is that some DO see us as NOT receiving a sinful nature/inherited from Adam...
that IF you hold that view, tha Jesus could have come like "anyone" else, as we did not have sin nature passed on to us!
basically, lose the doctrine of original sin, than you would jetison Virgin birth also, as no longer required!
And Jesus thus is reduced down to either being "just like us" or else man is elevated to being "just like him!"
IF you hold to doctrine of original sin, then all humans would inherit from Adam a sinful nature, as his fall would be imputed to us by God...
Jesus HAS to be Human, but with a perfect sinless nature, as Adam was created with before his fall..
hence the Virgin birth, as God was/is His father, so no sin nature for Him to receive!
If the sin nature is passed by the man only, then why would the mother need to be a virgin?
The scriptures say Jesus is come in the flesh and whoever denies that is the spirit of antichrist (1 Jn 4:1-3).
The scriptures say God cannot be tempted with evil (Jam 1:13), and yet we are told Jesus took on him the same nature as the seed of Abraham, in all things made like unto his brethren, he suffered being tempted, and is touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in ALL POINTS tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb 2:16-18, Heb 4:15).
Where did Jesus inherit this ability to be tempted and suffer as we do? From his mother of course. And being a virgin does not mean a person lacks a sin nature, virgins are sinners just like everyone else.
The reason Jesus was born of a virgin was to prove he was born of God. If Mary had not been a virgin, would any man believe he was born of God? NO.
The term "sin nature" is not found in the scriptures, the scriptures call us flesh, and the scriptures say Jesus is come in the flesh. He had lusts and desires just like us, but he never obeyed them when it would have caused him to sin.
Original Sin is a false doctrine IMO, and leads to other false doctrine such as the Immaculate Conception that says Mary was born without original sin. OS is also the foundation of Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it.
The fact that Jesus could be tempted proves he had a nature inherited from his mother.
The scriptures say Jesus is come in the flesh and whoever denies that is the spirit of antichrist (1 Jn 4:1-3).
The scriptures say God cannot be tempted with evil (Jam 1:13), and yet we are told Jesus took on him the same nature as the seed of Abraham, in all things made like unto his brethren, he suffered being tempted, and is touched with the feeling of our infirmities, and was in ALL POINTS tempted like as we are, yet without sin. (Heb 2:16-18, Heb 4:15).
Where did Jesus inherit this ability to be tempted and suffer as we do? From his mother of course. And being a virgin does not mean a person lacks a sin nature, virgins are sinners just like everyone else.
The reason Jesus was born of a virgin was to prove he was born of God. If Mary had not been a virgin, would any man believe he was born of God? NO.
The term "sin nature" is not found in the scriptures, the scriptures call us flesh, and the scriptures say Jesus is come in the flesh. He had lusts and desires just like us, but he never obeyed them when it would have caused him to sin.
Original Sin is a false doctrine IMO, and leads to other false doctrine such as the Immaculate Conception that says Mary was born without original sin. OS is also the foundation of Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it.
The fact that Jesus could be tempted proves he had a nature inherited from his mother.
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IF Jesus inherited the same nature as His Mother... She was a sinner, and he likewise would have been a sinner.. not the saviour/Messiah
IF it is as you say, than would not mattrer if Joseph was his father or God, as he would have received same nature as we all have, again sinful, and no messiah in that case...
jesus was born in human flesh, but since he was born /conceived by Holy Spirit, father was/is God... Got humanity from mary, NOT her nature as His nature is God and sinless Human nature' just like Adam before his Fall...
So Jesus HAD to be conceived by Holy Spirit in order to remain God and take on a sinless human nature...
Anything else produces a false Jesus and False Gospel...
I agree Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was fully God. But he was also flesh and fully man. The Father in heaven cannot be tempted, Jesus was able to be tempted just like us, but he never gave in to temptation and sinned.
If you deny that Jesus came in the flesh, that is the spirit of antichrist (1 Jn 4:3). Read that and see if you wish to continue denying Jesus was fully man and suffered being tempted just like us.
Jesus inherited his flesh from his mother.
This is why the Catholics invented the false doctrine of Immaculate Conception. They realized Jesus inherited at least part of his nature from Mary, so they claim by a special grace of God she was born without the stain of OS. One false doctrine leads to another, Mary gave a sin offering right after Jesus was born. She also called Jesus her Saviour. If she had no sin, why do the scriptures tell us this?
You have simply swallowed what you have been taught without thinking for yourself.
So women inherit the sin nature from their fathers but it ends in each of them and is only passed to her sons and daughters ending in the daughters but passed on through the sons?
I could not think that yet I asked it because of another thought provoking thread. Thanks
Thing is that jesus DID NOT come in same flesh you and I had at our birth...
God was/is His father, so had a sinless Humanity at birth...
NOT same flesh we have...
believe Jesus came in the Flesh, God became a man, but NOT same as we all our, for he was born w/o our sinful flesh, his was sinless in nature, as Adam was before the fall!
if he actually had same flesh we were born with, would not be able to save Himself, much less be the saviour for the Whole World!
Any Bible verse that states that this was the way that Jesus the human was sinless?
He did come in the "same" flesh, hence his humanity, and thus the incarnation--meaning "God come in the flesh."
The fact that he was conceived by the Holy Spirit does not change the fact that he was born of flesh, it only changes the fact that he did not inherit a sin nature. His humanity is reflected in his fleshly desires: He thirsted, hungered, wept, tired, grieved, was angered, etc., and yet never sinned. If he did not have the same sin, he would not have been able to be tempted in all points such as we are and were.
The reason Jesus was born of a virgin was for a sign. Sin is not something that is passed, but something that is NOT passed, and that is life. It is not a pollution (something added), as much as it is a corruption (something lost).
Christ's sinlessness is by virtue of His divine nature, not the manner in which His body was prepared.
Where's that verse at. I know there is one, but can't find it.
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)
Reply to Jesusfan,
Yet another great question!
I think we all agree that because of the sin of Adam, not Adam and Eve, the many [everyone but Jesus] were made sinners. To be made "sinners" means to be spiritually separated from God, like the dead are separated from the living, so we are spiritually dead, dead in our sins so to speak because our iniquity has caused a separation between us and God. Next, being made "sinners" we were corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin. Note when Adam sinned, then and not before were Eve's eyes opened as were Adam's, so the corruption was spread not sexually, but spiritually.
So if this is true, why was Jesus not born of Joesph's seed, because the corruption comes through the God formed human spirit, rather than through biology. The answer is to fulfill prophecy. The Messiah would come through the line of David, and the legal line was via Joseph as the adoptive father, and the blood line through Mary.
In summary the life force that entered Mary's egg, and created Jesus was the Word, and thus the Spirit of Christ was not separated from God but was God, and therefore was not "made a sinner" due to the consequence of Adam's sin.
Yet another great question!
I think we all agree that because of the sin of Adam, not Adam and Eve, the many [everyone but Jesus] were made sinners. To be made "sinners" means to be spiritually separated from God, like the dead are separated from the living, so we are spiritually dead, dead in our sins so to speak because our iniquity has caused a separation between us and God. Next, being made "sinners" we were corrupted such that we are predisposed to sin. Note when Adam sinned, then and not before were Eve's eyes opened as were Adam's, so the corruption was spread not sexually, but spiritually.
So if this is true, why was Jesus not born of Joesph's seed, because the corruption comes through the God formed human spirit, rather than through biology. The answer is to fulfill prophecy. The Messiah would come through the line of David, and the legal line was via Joseph as the adoptive father, and the blood line through Mary.
In summary the life force that entered Mary's egg, and created Jesus was the Word, and thus the Spirit of Christ was not separated from God but was God, and therefore was not "made a sinner" due to the consequence of Adam's sin.
With all the passages that speak of born/begotten of God for the called which I believe to come about by the gift of the Holy Spirit from God the Father through the Son, then would to be conceived of the Holy Spirit of a virgin be the manner in which Jesus is the only begotten of the Father? Did his life as a man begin with the Spirit without measure? As in, I can of mine own self do nothing:
I was thinking that there was another verse somewhere else about it too.What man acquired in the fall was the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge is not evil, as God himself confirmed he has this knowledge, but this was a knowledge man was not intended to know, thus was prohibited by God's command.
This knowledge is incompatible with "the flesh". God cannot be tempted with evil (Jam 1:13) but man can.
In layman's terms, man cannot "handle" this knowledge, as the knowledge of evil and it's pleasures tempts man above what his fleshly desires can resist.
But no one dies until they sin. Sin brings forth death, not death sin as some falsely teach.