If you do not hold to "Doctrines of Grace" are you lost?

[PreachTony]

Tony, if I may....

You said you liked Washer when he went hard after the prosperity goons, but fell away when he spoke against those who use a "Romans Road"

It sounds as though you were high-fiving Washer's gospel-bashing until he got to your gospel.

That's a completely fair point, James. I should note that I don't consider the "prosperity gospel" to be the gospel. It is a false teaching. It is only substantiated in scripture by twisting verses and making statements that have no evidence to corroborate them (i.e.: Jesus was rich). My initial introduction to Washer's sermons was through his railing against these false teachings. At the time, I had no idea of his stance concerning Lordship Salvation and Calvinism.

Any Calvinist believes their interpretation of scripture is "the gospel." Any Arminian, Free-Willer, etc. believes their interpretation is "the gospel." My stance, James, is that if the Lord impressed Paul to record such steps as listed in Romans, then that should be good enough for us to use without demeaning those who do. Now, do we stop after completing the Romans Road? No. Some people will, I'm sure. That still does not justify us in questioning their salvation. It does not give us the right to belittle their experience just because it doesn't fit the mold we think it should fit.

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

My stance, James, is that if the Lord impressed Paul to record such steps as listed in Romans, then that should be good enough for us to use without demeaning those who do.

What is refered to as Romans Road as it is used is incomplete .

If a person is going to use Romans.....they should use the whole road.

Now, do we stop after completing the Romans Road? No.

Good. Many do stop and give assurance unto someone who went down this road in a minute and a half that they are indeed saved, no matter what.

Some people will, I'm sure.

That is the problem PT. Presenting truth is a life and death issue. Those who are critical are not saying those 4 verses are not good.....they are saying it goes a bit deeper.

That still does not justify us in questioning their salvation

.

No one is called to be a fruit inspector. We are our brothers keeper however. The concern would be a professed christian who does not give any indication of a converted life.

6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

It does not give us the right to belittle their experience just because it doesn't fit the mold we think it should fit.

Can you think of many persons who used to stand side by side in a worship service who have vanished?

Why did they vanish?

Was it sudden or a process?

Did you observe them struggling?

Did you attempt to minister to them in their struggle?

 

[JamesL]

My stance, James, is that if the Lord impressed Paul to record such steps as listed in Romans, then that should be good enough for us to use without demeaning those who do.

Everyone who is passionate has concerns over the use of any method other than their own.

As Icon elaborated, the Lordship proponent would rail against "Romans Road" gospel on two accounts:
first, too easy. Hop, skip, jump, magic prayer....voila.
Second, Where is discipleship, etc?

I have an issue with it from the opposite direction:
First, every scripture used after Romans 3:23 is taken out of context. By narrowing salvation to an unbiblical definition of simply "saved from hell, going to heaven", every verse which speaks of salvation or eternal life is jammed into one context, and the whole bible becomes convoluted.

It's a "response" oriented message instead of a Christ oriented message. It's far too easy to leave the impression that because you "said the prayer" that you reached God, that you accessed grace through your own effort. And I've met plenty if people who think this. It supplants believing with works. Believing upon Christ is internal, a prayer is external.

For what it's worth, this is the same issue I have with the Lordship Salvation view.


I will also say that though I believe these works oriented "gospels" are false, God can bring someone to faith in spite of a heretical gospel. But that is no excuse to continue to preach heresy.

Just like my firm belief that God can bring someone to genuine faith in Christ through the heretical contrivances of the Word of Faith gang, the Church of Christ's ladder of salvation, and other false gospels. But the guy preaching it should be accursed

 

[evangelist6589]

It doesn't matter how loaded with scripture his book is. Satan can quote more scripture than you, me, and Paul Washer combined, and he can twist it far worse than we can. Washer has already twisted it badly enough.



It seems as though you are not willing to hold to sola scriptura. The scriptures and the gospel preached from the scriptures are sufficient to the saving of the world. Nothing Paul Washer writes will add one jot or tittle to the holy and inspired Word of God.



However, what Paul Washer writes can lead countless people into false salvation and despair, as he claims that we must keep up works after salvation in order to prove our salvation. Any experience of grace, something I'm sure most members of BB can point back to in their lives, is discounted by Washer as a silly profession, as he would rather people work their way into salvation rather than rely on the shed blood of Jesus and the grace of God that comes to us by faith.



As far as I'm concerned, Paul Washer ranks right up there with any other false teacher you want to trot out in front of us.

It's obvious you have not read his books based on the ignorance of this post. Please read his books before you attack.

 

[Rolfe]

The Lord saved me when I was nine years old. I had never heard of the Doctrines of Grace. Nor have most children who make professions of faith.

:thumbs: Yep.

 

[percho]

The Lord saved me when I was nine years old. I had never heard of the Doctrines of Grace. Nor have most children who make professions of faith.

Did he save you, by grace or by you walking down the Roman road?

The wages of sin is death. That is the law of sin and death. The soul that sins shall die.

All souls have sinned.

Jesus of Nazareth, born of the virgin Mary, a living soul, never sinned, not even a little bitty sin, yet he died, the very death assigned to the soul that sins. The LORD hath laid on him (his only begotten Son, what ever that means) the iniquity (sin) of us all.

What is the grace of God?

Where is the only begotten Son of the Father, (whatever that means) presently and how did he get from where he was above to where he is presently?

What is the grace of God?

the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Does through have anything to do with grace?

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Acts 2:36

When? Grace?

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2:21

 

[DHK]

Everyone who is passionate has concerns over the use of any method other than their own.

As Icon elaborated, the Lordship proponent would rail against "Romans Road" gospel on two accounts:
first, too easy. Hop, skip, jump, magic prayer....voila.
Second, Where is discipleship, etc?

As opposed to the Romans Road or any other presentation of the gospel similar to it, you and Icon have twisted the gospel from an event into a process. It is not a process; it is an event. After that event is over, then discipleship begins in which progressive sanctification takes place and the believer begins to grow.

Salvation/justification/regeneration all take place at the same time. It is an event--an event that one should be able to point to in their lives just as a married person can point to the date and place of their wedding.
--The marriage is life-long process.
Our relationship with Jesus is a life-long process involving discipleship and sanctification.

Icon's list are not requirements for salvation. If they are salvation is by works.
Your mention of discipleship is not a requirement of salvation. If it is salvation is by works.

Washer was here for one or two days. How much discipleship do you think he accomplished in that short period of time. If I go by your definitions he was a hypocrite.

 

[Rolfe]

Wait what? You have no idea what I do as a pastor. Me thinks someone is bitter.

Expect a letter to your church. :laugh:

 

[JamesL]

As opposed to the Romans Road or any other presentation of the gospel similar to it, you and Icon have twisted the gospel from an event into a process.

I think you ought to take a look at 2 things:

1) If you read my post again, you SHOULD see that I object to the use of "Romans Road" on different grounds than Iconoclast. He says it's not enough, I say it is too much.

2) You like to say that salvation/regeneration is an event, and that sanctification is a process. But scripture uses the word "salvation" in such a broad manner that regeneration and sanctification are but two aspects of salvation.


In short, salvation is a process. But any aspect of the process is rightly called "salvation"
Justification is rightly called salvation
Regeneration (after justification) is rightly called salvation
Sanctification is right called salvation
Resurrection is rightly called salvation
Inheritance is right called salvation

So when you say "salvation" is an event, and cram every biblical use of "saved" into the context of conversion, you have thoroughly abused the scriptures, minimized God's great promise of an eternal inheritance, misunderstood the nature of resurrection; and in short, have heinously bastardized the gospel of grace


Then to twist all those verses in Romans into a conversion spiel. That's why you work so hard to twist Romans 10:9-13 into a conversion prayer, because you neglect the context - Eschatological salvation

And by doing that, you employ the voodoo of you do....pray this prayer. It's an attempt to make converts through human effort, and throws the cross of Christ into a ditch

 

[DHK]

I think you ought to take a look at 2 things:

1) If you read my post again, you SHOULD see that I object to the use of "Romans Road" on different grounds than Iconoclast. He says it's not enough, I say it is too much.

2) You like to say that salvation/regeneration is an event, and that sanctification is a process. But scripture uses the word "salvation" in such a broad manner that regeneration and sanctification are but two aspects of salvation.


In short, salvation is a process. But any aspect of the process is rightly called "salvation"
Justification is rightly called salvation
Regeneration (after justification) is rightly called salvation
Sanctification is right called salvation
Resurrection is rightly called salvation
Inheritance is right called salvation

So when you say "salvation" is an event, and cram every biblical use of "saved" into the context of conversion, you have thoroughly abused the scriptures, minimized God's great promise of an eternal inheritance, misunderstood the nature of resurrection; and in short, have heinously bastardized the gospel of grace


Then to twist all those verses in Romans into a conversion spiel. That's why you work so hard to twist Romans 10:9-13 into a conversion prayer, because you neglect the context - Eschatological salvation

And by doing that, you employ the voodoo of you do....pray this prayer. It's an attempt to make converts through human effort, and throws the cross of Christ into a ditch

When discussing with the average person the topic of salvation, or "being saved," we usually refer to such passages as:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is an event, not a process.
There are some people who stretch out the term to think of it as a process, using such verses as:
"Work out your own salvation," but that simply refers to sanctification.
or
"We wait for the redemption of our bodies," which refers to glorification or the Second Coming of Christ.

But salvation is not a process. If it were it would be by works. Salvation is not of works. For by grace are ye saved through faith...and that not of works. Therefore salvation is an event. That is also what makes Lordship Salvation wrong. It also is salvation by works. But salvation is an event.
It is an event where regeneration/salvation/positional sanctification/justification/ all take place at the same time and much much more. It is an event.

 

[JamesL]

When discussing with the average person the topic of salvation, or "being saved," we usually refer to such passages as:

I don't really care what "we" usually refer to. You take them out of context, plain and simple.

And right off the bat, you're teaching this "average person" to start taking the whole book of Romans out of context.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Out of context. First, there are TWO causes, TWO effects
1) believe unto righteousness
2) confess unto salvation

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You quote these as if you expect me to disagree? The burden before YOU is to attempt to prove that BELIEVING is synonymous with PRAYING. The two are mutually exclusive.

Salvation is an event, not a process.

WRONG !!
Salvation is a process of events. Jusitifcation is an event, just like the resurrection will be an event. And scripture says - HAVING BEEN justified by His blood, we SHALL BE saved by His life - Romans 5:9-10

There are some people who stretch out the term to think of it as a process, using such verses as:
"Work out your own salvation," but that simply refers to sanctification.

Fascinating. Working out your salvation refers to sanctification, but sanctification isn't salvation?

Think long and hard before you answer that.

But salvation is not a process.

Saying it over and over won't make it true

If it were it would be by works. Salvation is not of works. For by grace are ye saved through faith...and that not of works. Therefore salvation is an event. That is also what makes Lordship Salvation wrong. It also is salvation by works. But salvation is an event.
It is an event where regeneration/salvation/positional sanctification/justification/ all take place at the same time and much much more. It is an event.

So the one who endures to the end will be ______?
Work out your _______?

Hebrews 9:28 says that when Jesus returns, it will NOT be in regards to sin. But rather, it will be in regards to SALVATION.

Paul said in Romans 13:11 says that SALVATION is nearer now than when we believed.

WHAT ?!?!?

How can Jesus come in regards to salvation, yet it's not in relation to sin?

How can salvation be nearer now than when we believed, if it's a finished event?


He who ENDURES to the end will be SAVED - Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13
If we ENDURE, we will REIGN with Him - 2Timothy 2:12


14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the SACRED WRITINGS which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Paul told Timothy to continue in the things he learned from a child. Those things in scripture, which are able to give Timothy wisdom unto salvation.


Salvation is a process. Justification is only one aspect of the entire process. Resurrection is an event in the process. Our inheritance is also called salvation


You need to study

 

[DHK]

I don't really care what "we" usually refer to. You take them out of context, plain and simple.

And right off the bat, you're teaching this "average person" to start taking the whole book of Romans out of context.

Touchy aren't "we", er, I mean you.
I am a pastor/teacher, so yes, I teach and "we" teach "average people." I trust that doesn't offend you more than it already has.

Concerning the verses in Romans 10, that you think I took out of context--the fact that you think they were out of context is irrelevant. They were used in an evangelistic way to show someone the way of salvation. Your private interpretation is a red herring. You are not the one "teaching the average person the gospel." You are thousands of miles away. Who cares what you believe, when I am the one telling someone about Christ. (to put it bluntly).
Your beliefs don't affect the gospel going out.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Out of context. First, there are TWO causes, TWO effects
1) believe unto righteousness
2) confess unto salvation

You are the one confused here. Let me quote from Walvoord and Zuck, "The Bible Knowledge Commentary,"

Vs.9-13. In these verses Paul stated the content of the message concerning faith. Confessing with the mouth that Jesus is Lord is mentioned first to conform to the order of the quotation from Deu.30:14 in Rom.10:8.
The confession is an acknowledgement that God has been incarnated in Jesus (cf.vs.6), that Jesus Christ is God. Also essential is heart-faith that God raised him from the dead (vs.7). The result is salvation. The true order is given in verse 10:
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified (lit., "it is believed unto righteousness"), and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved (lit., "it is confessed unto salvation"). Yet these are not two separate steps to salvation. They are chronologically together. Salvation comes through acknowledging to God that Christ is God and believing in Him.

There are not two steps, two causes, two effects.
Salvation or (sola fide), is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

You quote these as if you expect me to disagree? The burden before YOU is to attempt to prove that BELIEVING is synonymous with PRAYING. The two are mutually exclusive.

Who said anything about praying. I quoted Acts 16:30,31 and Eph.2:8,9, and the above is your response. Salvation takes an act of belief; faith in Christ.

WRONG !!
Salvation is a process of events. Jusitifcation is an event, just like the resurrection will be an event. And scripture says - HAVING BEEN justified by His blood, we SHALL BE saved by His life - Romans 5:9-10

Your welcome to your opinion. It is duly noted.
I already explained how the different words are used in the Bible. There is salvation (the event); sanctification (the process); and glorification (our final redemption).
When witnessing to someone of their salvation it is not necessary to go through the theology of progressive sanctification and eschatology, our resurrection, glorification, the redemption of our bodies, etc. This has no bearing on the new birth or justification, does it?

Fascinating. Working out your salvation refers to sanctification, but sanctification isn't salvation?

Think long and hard before you answer that.

No, progressive sanctification has nothing to do with salvation. At the time of our salvation Christ sets us apart, makes us holy, and that is positional sanctification.

Saying it over and over won't make it true

True enough. A lesson you should learn.

So the one who endures to the end will be ______?

will be physically saved during the time of tribulation. Context is good thing to study.

Work out your _______?

What is the problem. They already had their salvation. It is an event. They weren't working for their salvation, but literally putting into practice the salvation that they already had, which (as I already said) is a process of sanctification or walking the Christian walk.

Hebrews 9:28 says that when Jesus returns, it will NOT be in regards to sin. But rather, it will be in regards to SALVATION.

--The time of our glorification.

Paul said in Romans 13:11 says that SALVATION is nearer now than when we believed.

Or redemption, (redemption of our bodies, as in glorification) Rom.8:23

How can Jesus come in regards to salvation, yet it's not in relation to sin?

Romans 8:1--There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.
We wait for the redemption of our bodies.

How can salvation be nearer now than when we believed, if it's a finished event?

We wait for the redemption of our bodies.

He who ENDURES to the end will be SAVED - Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13

Speaking of the physical salvation of the Jews.

If we ENDURE, we will REIGN with Him - 2Timothy 2:12

Spiritual endurance, as Paul did. "I finished the race..." he said at the end of his life. He endured. And when Christ comes back to set up His Kingdom we will reign with him.

14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the SACRED WRITINGS which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Paul told Timothy to continue in the things he learned from a child. Those things in scripture, which are able to give Timothy wisdom unto salvation.

Wise to the salvation that was given to him. He needs to, like the Philippians, put his salvation into practice on a daily basis. The outworking of that event changes a person. It is not simply an intellectual decision to be remembered.

Salvation is a process. Justification is only one aspect of the entire process. Resurrection is an event in the process. Our inheritance is also called salvation

By some salvation is wrongly used to indicate a process, but that causes confusion. Salvation is not a process it is an event. If it is a process then salvation is by works, which is then heresy.
Disagree if you wish. Most of the time we speak of salvation in the context of witnessing to another. That is what this thread is about isn't it?
If you don't believe the doctrines of grace, are you LOST?
The very subject line refers to an event, or the event of salvation, not a process!

 

[JamesL]

Disagree if you wish. Most of the time we speak of salvation in the context of witnessing to another. That is what this thread is about isn't it?
If you don't believe the doctrines of grace, are you LOST?
The very subject line refers to an event, or the event of salvation, not a process!

Walvoord and Zuck? :laugh:
I gave away their commentaries, thanks


As for Doctrines of Grace, do you mean the ones displayed in the TULIP?

If so, that represents Protestant doctrine, found in the likes of the Westminster Confession. And Westminster most assuredly frames salvation as a process, not an event.


But by all means, carry on. You're free to continue in your error.

 

[DHK]

Walvoord and Zuck? :laugh:
I gave away their commentaries, thanks


As for Doctrines of Grace, do you mean the ones displayed in the TULIP?

If so, that represents Protestant doctrine, found in the likes of the Westminster Confession. And Westminster most assuredly frames salvation as a process, not an event.


But by all means, carry on. You're free to continue in your error.

Through my many years of service I have seen:
the destructiveness of Calvinism, how it has split churches.
how it has taken away the evangelistic zeal of churches.
how it has turned young people once zealous for the Lord now lethargic and more disinterested.
how it has turned spontaneous worship into a dead ritual and formalism.

In short, Jesus condemns it when He says: "You have lost your first love."

Herrick Johnson, a one-time Moderator of the General Assembly, and a Presbyterian theologian made this observation about the Westminster Confession:

Across the Westminster Confession could justly be written "The Gospel for The elect only." That Confession was written under the absolute dominion of one idea, the doctrine of predestination.
It does not contain one the three truths:
God's love for a lost world.
Christ's compassion for a lost world.
And the gospel universal for a lost world.

quote found in A.H. Strong's Systematic Theology.

Calvinism is an erroneous system which people would be wise to depart from.