If you don't know why then how do you know its unconditional?

[Skandelon]

There is an abundance of biblical evidence to support unconditional election. There is equal evidence to support the contention that God did not elect based on any merit on the part of the one elected.

Eph. 1:4 reveals that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world. Rom. 9:22-23 expands on this, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so that make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory." Nowhere does it teach that God chose based upon any future action of man. Indeed, Rom. 5:6 tell us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." Paul restates this two verses later in Rom. 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Peter approaches this from a different angle in 1 Peter 2:9, "For you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD'S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." Ungodly, sinners, darkness; there is nothing in man that merits salvation.

I realize these texts are used to prove that you do not know why God chose you rather than someone else, but Calvinists readily admit that they don't know why God chose them over another. If you don't know why you were chosen then how do you know it wasn't based on a condition of some kind? How does appealing to mystery help your positive assertion that there is no condition?

 

[preacher4truth]

It is strange that many struggle with this as much as they do.Isaiah when he saw Jesus in Heaven realized his condition before God:

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.


Peter did say this of paul's writings however;
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


from the struggle many have...it would seem that this was in view, perhaps also the grace and duty to be spiritually minded, mortifying sin,etc...can also be a struggle.

No one minds sincere questions and objections or inquiry.Most of the friction here comes when some attack God, His word , or His Holy motives.

Just think back through the threads that get the most heated,and this seems to be the root cause.....a wrong view of man and the effects of the fall on our minds and hearts. Any question that suggests in any way something wrong or lacking in God's holy wisdom is to be treated as a theological third rail.:thumbsup::wavey:

Agreed and amen.

It is these who contrary to the call to come without money and receive believe they do have the means to come, "Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and he who has no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." Isaiah 55:1

Or as the error of the OP suggests, that they are chosen due to some good or reason on their part. As I stated, such an argument and philosophy is against grace and is against it 100%.

 

[Iconoclast]

I realize these texts are used to prove that you do not know why God chose you rather than someone else, but Calvinists readily admit that they don't know why God chose them over another. If you don't know why you were chosen then how do you know it wasn't based on a condition of some kind? How does appealing to mystery help your positive assertion that there is no condition?

God is no respector of persons.God is not a debtor to us in any way.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

 

[Herald]

I realize these texts are used to prove that you do not know why God chose you rather than someone else,

These texts are not used to prove anything. These texts are self-revealing. They reveal that all men are ungodly, sinners, and in darkness. Romans 3 goes on to describe mankind as "none righteous, not even one" (Rom. 3:10). Romans 6:6 refers to the sinner's "body of sin" and that sinners are "slaves to sin". So, I can authoritatively state that no one is chosen because of any good they have done.

but Calvinists readily admit that they don't know why God chose them over another. If you don't know why you were chosen then how do you know it wasn't based on a condition of some kind? How does appealing to mystery help your positive assertion that there is no condition?

I am not concerned with what "Calvinists readily admit". I am concerned with the truth of scripture.

If you are asking me why God chose Mary and did not choose Bob, I will point you to Ephesians 1:5, 6 which states, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved." That Mary was saved was due to the "kind intention of His will" and was for "the praise of the glory of His grace". Even more than that Philippians 2:13 tells us, "for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." So, basically, God elects individuals because it pleases Him to do so. To even ask God "why" is to justly deserve the the rebuke of Romans 9:20, 21 "On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make one from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?"

 

[Rippon]

Herald,all you have written above is soundly biblical and therefore totally unacceptable to many on the BB.

 

[Skandelon]

They reveal that all men are ungodly, sinners, and in darkness.

Agreed. But it says nothing about their inability to respond to God's gracious appeal to be reconciled.

Romans 3 goes on to describe mankind as "none righteous, not even one" (Rom. 3:10).

Agreed. No one has or ever will attain righteousness through the works of the law, but that says nothing about man's inability to attain righteousness through faith in Christ, which is what Paul goes on to reveal in verse 21 and following of that same chapter.

The mistake of Calvinism: Equating the pursuit to attain righteousness by works with the pursuit to attain righteousness by faith and dismissing both pursuits as being unattainable...

Romans 6:6 refers to the sinner's "body of sin" and that sinners are "slaves to sin". So, I can authoritatively state that no one is chosen because of any good they have done.

Agreed. Just as the Prodigal son wasn't forgiven because he deserved to be forgiven. He didn't earn the reception he got because he came home. That was the gracious choice of the Father. The son, even though he came home to make a request, still deserved punishment, not forgiveness. Asking for forgiveness doesn't merit forgiveness. It never has.

If you are asking me why God chose Mary and did not choose Bob, I will point you to Ephesians 1:5, 6 which states, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved."

He predestined who? "US" Who is "US?" Those who are 'in Christ by faith.' You are reading it with the cart before the horse. He has predetermine what will happen to all those who by faith enter through Christ. We will all be adopted as sons and conformed to his imagine, because that is what he has predetermined for us. You are reading it with a hyper-individualized (its all about me) Western mindset, when Paul was speaking to a greek mindset.

 

[Herald]

Agreed. But it says nothing about their inability to respond to God's gracious appeal to be reconciled.

Agreed. No one has or ever will attain righteousness through the works of the law, but that says nothing about man's inability to attain righteousness through faith in Christ, which is what Paul goes on to reveal in verse 21 and following of that same chapter.

The mistake of Calvinism: Equating the pursuit to attain righteousness by works with the pursuit to attain righteousness by faith and dismissing both pursuits as being unattainable...


Agreed. Just as the Prodigal son wasn't forgiven because he deserved to be forgiven. He didn't earn the reception he got because he came home. That was the gracious choice of the Father. The son, even though he came home to make a request, still deserved punishment, not forgiveness. Asking for forgiveness doesn't merit forgiveness. It never has.

He predestined who? "US" Who is "US?" Those who are 'in Christ by faith.' You are reading it with the cart before the horse. He has predetermine what will happen to all those who by faith enter through Christ. We will all be adopted as sons and conformed to his imagine, because that is what he has predetermined for us. You are reading it with a hyper-individualized (its all about me) Western mindset, when Paul was speaking to a greek mindset.

Do I really need to quote Ephesians 2:1; 1 Corinthians 2:14; and Romans 8:7? Obviously I do.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

You and I debated this earlier this year. It seems to be a favorite topic of yours. When things get too quiet on this board you have to scratch the same itch again.

 

[preacher4truth]

The only good, Biblical and reasoned responses in this thread come from those within the reformed camp. Great job!

 

[Skandelon]

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins

If dead = "totally unable to respond to God's life-giving, powerful, truth," then yes you have a point, but to presume so would be question begging since that is the very point up for debate.

The prodigal son who was SEPARATED and REBELLIOUS but who chose to return to seek forgiveness was referred to as 'dead and now alive.'

In Romans 6, believers are spoken of as being 'dead to sin,' but I know you don't interpret that to mean that believers are unable to respond to temptation by sinning.

James 1 teaches, "after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." It doesn't say we are all born dead.

Being dead is an analogy of separation, like when a father says to a rebellious son, "You are dead to me." To assume it equates to your dogma of total inability is nothing more than question begging.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Yet, the 'brethren' he is speaking to can't seem to accept these 'deep things of the spirit' either when you read the entire context 2:9-3:5.

Plus, this verse doesn't even address the means God employes to spiritually discern/explain his mysterious...such as the very inspired words that Paul is writing to these people who are living like carnal men on the milk of the word. Context is important.

Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

And how does proof that man is unable to fulfill the law prove he is equally unable to believe in the one who fulfilled it for us?

You and I debated this earlier this year. It seems to be a favorite topic of yours. When things get too quiet on this board you have to scratch the same itch again.

Personal instead of substantive.

 

[Winman]

There is an abundance of biblical evidence to support unconditional election. There is equal evidence to support the contention that God did not elect based on any merit on the part of the one elected.

Eph. 1:4 reveals that God chose His elect before the foundation of the world. Rom. 9:22-23 expands on this, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so that make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory." Nowhere does it teach that God chose based upon any future action of man. Indeed, Rom. 5:6 tell us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." Paul restates this two verses later in Rom. 5:8, "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Peter approaches this from a different angle in 1 Peter 2:9, "For you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD'S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." Ungodly, sinners, darkness; there is nothing in man that merits salvation.

Ephesians 1 does not teach Unconditional Election, it says we were chosen "in him" which is conditioned on faith. No one is "in Christ" until they believe on Jesus in time.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

No one is "in Christ" until they believe on Jesus in time;

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Paul said Adronicus nd Junia were "in Christ" before he was. This shows that a Christian is placed "in him" or "in Christ" in their lifetime when they actually believe on Jesus.

Then how could God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKNOWLEDGE. The scriptures say we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God chose those persons he foresaw in his foreknowledge would believe on Jesus in time. God foresaw in his foreknowledge that Paul would believe on Jesus and chose and elected him upon this condition.

Those who do not believe on Jesus are not placed "in Christ" and therefore cannot be chosen "in him". Election is absolutely conditional, conditioned upon believing on Jesus.

Another verse that shows Christians were elected or chosen upon the condition of faith in Jesus is 2 Thessalonians 2:13;

2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Yes, God chose Christians from "the beginning", but it was "through" both sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth. Only those who believe the truth of the gospel were chosen.

This verse is not saying a person was chosen to believe, it is saying a Christian was chosen "through" belief of the truth.

Therefore, election is conditioned on believing the gospel of Jesus Christ. Men do this in time, but God in his foreknowledge could foresee who would believe and chose them.

 

[quantumfaith]

It is strange that many struggle with this as much as they do.Isaiah when he saw Jesus in Heaven realized his condition before God:

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.


Peter did say this of paul's writings however;
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


from the struggle many have...it would seem that this was in view, perhaps also the grace and duty to be spiritually minded, mortifying sin,etc...can also be a struggle.

No one minds sincere questions and objections or inquiry.Most of the friction here comes when some attack God, His word , or His Holy motives.

Just think back through the threads that get the most heated,and this seems to be the root cause.....a wrong view of man and the effects of the fall on our minds and hearts. Any question that suggests in any way something wrong or lacking in God's holy wisdom is to be treated as a theological third rail.:thumbsup::wavey:

Icon, (serious not sarcastic) why do you (and many others) always "seem" to presume that those of us who do not share your position on the DoG, fail to recognize our "position" before God. It is almost as if you want to corner the "sinfulness" and "transgression" market. It often seems you want to "say" that we think less our sinfulness, or perhaps we think we are "better" than yourself. Why is that? No one ever seems to suggest so, yet that "message" from 'yall" seems to be repeated over and over. I really do not understand that.

 

[Skandelon]

Back to the topic. On what basis do Calvinists claim that God's choice to save them, rather than another, is unknown, but all the while claim that it is not conditioned upon anything?

Doesn't the bible say that God chooses the weak? Isn't being weak a condition?

Doesn't the bible say that God chooses to give grace to the humble? Isn't being humble a condition?

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, (serious not sarcastic) why do you (and many others) always "seem" to presume that those of us who do not share your position on the DoG, fail to recognize our "position" before God. It is almost as if you want to corner the "sinfulness" and "transgression" market. It often seems you want to "say" that we think less our sinfulness, or perhaps we think we are "better" than yourself. Why is that? No one ever seems to suggest so, yet that "message" from 'yall" seems to be repeated over and over. I really do not understand that.

QF,

Probably because your position seems to suggest that man has an abundance of ability,unlike isaiah who says he was....UNDONE....also see Jn in rev 1....he was with Jesus on earth for years, yet when he saw Him in glory...he fell at His feet as a dead man.

I do not mean it to sound funny, but when most cals write what we do...it is not in reference to non cals....it is in reference to God himself. We do see Him as Lord of All...if he says jump..we say how high, not why do you expect us to jump, or explain to me why you want me to.

 

[Iconoclast]

Back to the topic. On what basis do Calvinists claim that God's choice to save them, rather than another, is unknown, but all the while claim that it is not conditioned upon anything?

Doesn't the bible say that God chooses the weak? Isn't being weak a condition?

Doesn't the bible say that God chooses to give grace to the humble? Isn't being humble a condition?[

When scripture identifies these characteristics...it does not say or mean that is the cause of the choice.It is the characteristics of all who come to Jesus as Lord. They know how guilty and condemned they are...and they Know how great a Saviour He is. They know they are powerless to save themselves...as Peter sinking in the water[weak} the weakness brings about a humbleness.

 

[preacher4truth]

When scripture identifies these characteristics...it does not say or mean that is the cause of the choice.It is the characteristics of all who come to Jesus as Lord. They know how guilty and condemned they are...and they Know how great a Saviour He is. They know they are powerless to save themselves...as Peter sinking in the water[weak} the weakness brings about a humbleness.

True.


God chose the weak. Certainly, but not because they are weak. Scripture gives the because for choosing as for 'His own purpose.'

God chooses the humble. Not because they are humble, but this state is of the redeemed, it is not a prerequisite nor a reason for being chosen to salvation, James 4:6, Psalm 138:6 -- it simply describes the state of the redeemed, note also Matthew 5.

God does not choose because one is humble, and the simple fact of the matter all who are lost are out of the way, lost, sick, hostile, enemies &c. Again the cause is His purposes and calling, not for any condition in man. Any other ideology against this speaks against salvation by grace, which is exactly the end result of the OP and it's objective.

But the OP has already been answered numerous times. The rest is simply to be contemptuous.

Scripture is clear, election to salvation is unconditional. Furthermore, not MANY are noble &c, it doesn't say ANY. It is all according to His purpose, not because of the condition of man.

But we will see a fight against this and boasting before the LORD that some were chosen 'because' which is the standpoint of the OP by the way.

 

[Skandelon]

When scripture identifies these characteristics...it does not say or mean that is the cause of the choice.It is the characteristics of all who come to Jesus as Lord. They know how guilty and condemned they are...and they Know how great a Saviour He is. They know they are powerless to save themselves...as Peter sinking in the water[weak} the weakness brings about a humbleness.

So, if you said, "I choose the pretty one," being pretty wasn't a condition of that choice?

On what basis do you conclude that God's choice to give grace to the humble isn't due to their humility? God said, "Humble yourself and you will be exalted." How is that not conditional?

 

[Skandelon]

Scripture is clear, election to salvation is unconditional.

Would you say the election is unconditional, but the salvation is conditional then?

 

[preacher4truth]

Election and salvation are one in the same. None are saved who were not chosen, none who are the chosen will miss salvation and all chosen are chosen unconditionally.

Any other position denies salvation by grace.

 

[JonC]

Sorry to interrupt, seeking clarification of “Calvinist” belief.

I thought that Calvinists held unconditional election to be election not conditioned on anything in man.

I didn’t realize that they held election and salvation to be one in the same (I, perhaps erroneously, thought that they believed one has to repent and believe – a condition of salvation – but that this was met by grace rather than human ability).

 

[psalms109:31]

When something is unconditional the purpose is to get people to come just as they are, not to tell people they can't come.

We are to encourage others to believe period this is what the scripture tells us.

If they don't believe in Christ they are not saved.

If they don't come they are on their own, because there is no condition for them to be saved just come as you are.

Is is a shame how some deal with this, but all scripture points us to Jesus and we should be doing the same.

I have no problem with unconditioned election, it is the truth. I just don't agree how some use it.