If your faith is a work then what?

[Darrenss1]

If by 'volition' you mean "the ability to make choices," and if by 'free will' you are refering to "liberterian free will", then I would say that determinism and free will are mutually exclusive.

Hi Brian,
How does determinism than deal with the problem of evil and sin in human beings??

I believe God is sovereign in the sense that He is able to do all His will.

Agree, however God's will in relation to man doing evil and sinful deeds must needs be qualified to balance that statement.

I also believe that God ordains everything that comes to pass. Does this necessarily entail that for God to be sovereign he *must* ordain everything that comes to pass?

OK, God ordains everything. Do you mean just the outcome? Does every outcome of every event logically entail God's necessitating the events by a just cause? This must also be in line with man's given response to God, for the good or the evil. God gave His law for example to Israel at Mt Sinai and through deuteronomy..etc The law states blessing and curses from how the people go about keeping and following the law of Moses. Did God will the outcome to occur by forcing each and every given individual response by each person under the law? OR the law being a boundary and man given a responsibilty to follow and adhere to the laws knowing the judgements of God for those whom transgress the law? God allowed the response, thus ordaining and willing its outcome but God did NOT force the outcome. For example a man knowing the law murders an innocent man, did God will that even though the law says God's commands are contrary to that action?

Darren

 

[Brian Bosse]

Hello Darren,

How does determinism than deal with the problem of evil and sin in human beings??

I am going to answer your question in this thread, but let me suggest that you start another thread if you wish to pursue further discussion on the topic of determinism and the problem of evil. Your question, even though important, is off topic, and I am just trying to be considerate of the topic of this thread.

Answer: If God ordains everything that comes to pass, then God ordains the sinful actions of human beings.

Since it is my position that God does ordain everything that comes to pass, then it is my position that God ordains the sinful acts of human beings. I realize this is very provocative, and just ask that you take this to another thread. I am not trying to avoid the discussion.

Sincerely,

Brian

 

[Benjamin]

Hello Benjamin,



Consider the following proposition...

(A) All who are justified are those who believe.

This universal affirmative statement can be translated into a conditional statement as follows...

(B) If you are justified, then you believe.

The antecedent of B is "you are justified" and the consequent of B is "you believe." From a strictly logical standpoint, the consequent of a true conditional is in some sense a necessary precondition of the antecedent. In other words, if B is a true statement, then you cannot have justification without believing. (If you could, then B would not be true.) In this sense, my believing is necessary for justification.



If by 'volition' you mean "the ability to make choices," and if by 'free will' you are refering to "liberterian free will", then I would say that determinism and free will are mutually exclusive.



I believe God is sovereign in the sense that He is able to do all His will. I also believe that God ordains everything that comes to pass. Does this necessarily entail that for God to be sovereign he *must* ordain everything that comes to pass? I am not sure. Maybe? Nevertheless, I affirm that God has ordained everything that comes to pass, even the various means of justification. From a strictly logical perspective, even if God ordained 'X' and 'Y', this does not mean that 'X' cannot be said to be necessary for 'Y'. As such, God ordains both the justification of His elect, and the elect's believing, and believing is still properly called necessary for justification.

Brian

I see and am not surprised, you’re still trying to have creaturely volitional decision both ways (determined and free) as evidenced by your statement that both, God ordains everything that comes to pass, and yet continue using the word “you” in front of “believe” and “are justified”. This clearly contradicts your system pertaining to justification and this fact is strengthened while you are readily admitting that that free will and determinism are mutually exclusive.

Problem in the discussion is you have avoided the given truth factor of determinism not logically being an either/or proposition, and the closely related subject of X pertaining to “responsibility” which is a necessity for judgment, and a logical truth factor, no matter the definition of Y. If 2 +2 = 4 is true then it is not true that 2+3 = 4.

I was just curious what your answer, if any, would be on the logic, but it is understandable that you would strive to have it both ways as is typical of the Calvinist position to avoid theological fatalism.

(Post #42) The irony is that now you are left with misplacement for the responsibility for evil and the Divine judgment against it.

(Deuteronomy 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

But thanks for the discussion.

 

[Brian Bosse]

Hello Benjamin,

...you’re still trying to have creaturely volitional decision both ways (determined and free) as evidenced by your statement that both, God ordains everything that comes to pass, and yet continue using the word “you” in front of “believe” and “are justified”.

This only follows if "you believe" necessarily entails that the action described is done freely. The sentence "you believe" simply describes the action performed by the subject and *not* the nature of the ultimate cause of that action. You are reading more into the statement "you believe" than what is said.

Problem in the discussion is you have avoided the given truth factor of determinism not logically being an either/or proposition, and the closely related subject of X pertaining to “responsibility” which is a necessity for judgment, and a logical truth factor, no matter the definition of Y.

This was really hard for me to understand. But what I think you are saying is that if the action of a subject is determined in an ultimate sense by anyone other than the subject, then the subject cannot be held responsible for that action. Since people are held responsible for their actions, then it is not the case that the action of a subject is determined in an ultimate sense by anyone other than the subject. In other words, since people are responsible for what they do, then determinism cannot be correct. Or, since people are responsible for what they do, then they must have liberterian free will. Again, I think this is what you were trying to say. Simply put, I do not agree that responsibility for an action necessarily entails liberterian freedom in that action. To put this positively, we are responsible for our actions even if they are ordained by God.

The irony is that now you are left with misplacement for the responsibility for evil and the Divine judgment against it.

I affirm that I am responsible for my evil actions, and God is just to judge me for those actions. I also affirm that God ordains everything that comes to pass - including my evil actions. I do not affirm that the *act* of God ordaining my evil actions is itself evil. I also do not affirm that because God ordained my evil actions that I am no longer responsible.

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Amen, brother.

Sincerely,

Brian
P.S. This is really beyond the scope of this thread. If you want to continue with a discussion around my determinism, then please start another thread.

 

[Darrenss1]

I affirm that I am responsible for my evil actions, and God is just to judge me for those actions. I also affirm that God ordains everything that comes to pass - including my evil actions. I do not affirm that the *act* of God ordaining my evil actions is itself evil. I also do not affirm that because God ordained my evil actions that I am no longer responsible.

Since you like logic I'll say it this way, what you said here sounds logically incoherent. :smilewinkgrin:

Darren

 

[Winman]

The Bible says that God never tempts a man to sin, so man is completely responsible for his own sinful actions.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

However, God can use the sinful acts of a person to bring about his purposes. For instance, the children of Israel were forbidden to marry outside their religion, but Samson took a daughter of the Philistines as wife. God used this to deliver the Israelites out from under the Philistines.

Judges 14:1 And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines.
2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.
3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.
4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.

And I believe it shows in Esther that God can change his plans and adapt to situations.

Est 4:13 Then Mordecai commanded to answer Esther, Think not with thyself that thou shalt escape in the king's house, more than all the Jews.
14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place: but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?

Mordecai here told Esther that if she refused to go before the king on behalf of the Jews, that God would find another way to deliver them. So I think this scripture teaches that God can adapt to any situation and bring about his purposes regardless of the freewill acts of men.

Another example is Jonah, who disobeyed God's command to go preach to Nineveh and tried to run away. God caused a great storm, knowing the other sailors would cast Jonah overboard. And God had prepared a whale to swallow Jonah which quickly brought him to his senses. But when Jonah first ran away, that was rebellion and sin.

Jon 1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD.
4 But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.

Jon 1:14 Wherefore they cried unto the LORD, and said, We beseech thee, O LORD, we beseech thee, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not upon us innocent blood: for thou, O LORD, hast done as it pleased thee.
15 So they took up Jonah, and cast him forth into the sea: and the sea ceased from her raging.
16 Then the men feared the LORD exceedingly, and offered a sacrifice unto the LORD, and made vows.
17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

So God used Jonah's sin to perform a great miracle which was also a picture of Christ being in the heart of the earth three days and three nights, and rising from the dead.

Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.