If your gross income is only 8,000 a year should you still pay tithes?

Agree. The role of extended family is a critical piece of the puzzle. This is one area that the Amish and Mennonites do it right. The young adults are independent but property is shared in a way that benefits the young couple just getting started and later the old folks. There is a gradual transfer of ownership and responsibility from old to young.

And speaking of families, it just so happens that I received a new book today "The Westminster Confession and Standards" published by Free Presbyterian Press. I've been somewhat familiar with the Westminster for some years now, but this is the first time I've seen the preface, introduction, annexes, so forth. And it has been quite surprising to see how this great document of Church doctrine and polity was addressed to "the heads of families" and sets down from the very first page the importance of family worship. It seems the devil was attacking the Family in the 1600's just like he does today.

Surely, if we could get our families right, a lot of other things would get straightened out too. But to get families back to where they should be today would take the greatest revival in history.

 

Under the Mosaic Law, the poor did not tithe; the poor received tithes (Deu 14:28-29; 26:12-13). Only every third year were tithes actually given wholly away for the Levites and poor.
Annually, those who tithed were to bring their crops and livestock to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles. Here, they ate their own tithes and shared them with Levites.

This is correct, except that tithing had nothing to do with wages of any kind. It was always from the increase of the harvest (what God provided through nature) and not from economic activity (what man earned).

And Hebrews chapter 7 clearly says that the tithing command was disannulled (Heb 7:5,12,18).

It has never had one iota to do with money, except when one wanted to redeem the crop portion of the tithe for 120% of its value, or as a travel medium to the Feast of Tabernacles to be exchanged back into titheable commodities (crops and livestock).

Tithing has nothing to do with anything to do with Christians.

He did tell the Pharisees that they ought to tithe (their mint, anise, and cummin). He never said money, because there is nowhere in Scripture where anyone was ever commanded at any time to tithe money.

I don't see anywhere where "tithing" is expressed anywhere in the New Testament other than as references to the Old Testament Mosaic Law system of the seven-year crops and livestock cycle.

This is all correct to a point. However, we really should learn to keep the "tithe" out of our vocabulary in reference to New Testament Christian giving. Tithing has nothing whatsoever to do with giving money to a church. Using this term when referring to Christian charity confuses the term in its original context and results in eisegesis of passages where the term is found.

New Testament terms for giving money or anything else are charity, generosity, liberality, abundance, gifts, etc.

Referring to Christian acts of giving as "tithing" results in confusion, because there is absolutely nowhere in the Bible that could even begin to indicate any possible kind of obligation in any form for Christians to "tithe" or that it has anything to do with giving money or that it has anything to do with the church.

 

Yeah, possibly. But under the Mosaic Law, she would receive tithes rather than give tithes.

Where does the Bible even begin to remotely say such a thing?

There is nowhere in the Bible where New Testament Christians are in any way obligated to "tithe"; and tithing had nothing whatsoever to do with money nor with the church.

This had nothing whatsoever to do with tithing. It wasn't even for one's own church. This was an instruction to the people of the churches of Corinth and Galatia to save up some money or substance once per week, so that when Paul passed by on his journey, they would be prepared to give an abundance and Paul would not have to ask off-the-cuff. The instruction was to meet a special need in Jerusalem to relieve the saints there who were suffering a famine (Acts 11:27-30; Rom 15:24-28; I Cor 16:1-3). The "collection for the saints" in I Cor 16:1-3 has nothing to do with clergy salaries or anything to do with a budget or treasury in one's own church.

 

I say, Trust God!

 

Tiny Tim is exactly right in this thread. :thumbs:

 

Aresman: I had some questions for you but I see you answered most of them in your reply to mattjtayl. I need to check it out but I thought there was some provision for tithing in money in the OT. Also, if you compare the agrarian economy of Isreal with the cash/wage-based economy of today, you'll see why I say that tithing (or porportional giving, if you prefer) should be based on expendable income. Expendable income can be roughly equated to the "increase" of the fields.

Other than that, I have to prettymuch agree with what you said.

 

Absolutely not. And the middle income and wealthy have no buisiness paying tithes either. The christian is to NEVER be taught to tithe.

We should never give under compultion (tithing), but rather joyfully, what each one purposes in their heart, for God loves a cheerfull giver.

(straight from the scripture, of course.)


:godisgood:

 

Amen. :godisgood:

 

I don't post in this section often because of the Calvinist, Armenian nature of this section, but as far as tithing is concerned, you said it better than I could have. I agree with you completely, except for the slapping part. :laugh:

 

There are two places where money is referenced in the context of tithing.

1. Instead of giving one's tithe of crops, one could "redeem" this tithe by giving instead its value in money plus 20%. The tithe of the livestock could not be redeemed because animals were needed by the priests for burnt offerings.

Those who owned portions of land in the Promised Land were the ones who tithed of what they grew and raised there. Those who tithed brought the tenth of each crop and animal counted (not the best tenth--the tenth period) to the Levites. The Levites, in turn, had to give the best tenth of what they received to the priests (Num 18:24-31).

2. During the annual tithe feasts (the Feast of Tabernacles), everyone came to Jerusalem for food, fun, and fellowship. All tithers had to bring their tithes to eat there and share them with the Levites. If they lived far away from Jerusalem, making lugging a tenth of their crops and livestock burdensome, they could sell the tithe for money, carry the money there, and buy back titheable commodities.

Other than these, there was no other use for money in tithing. No one anywhere ever in the Bible was commanded to tithe money to anyone or anything. The tithes were always food and only food for the exact specific reason that all of this food grew or was raised in the Promised Land and was completely dependent upon God to supply the rain and climate conditions to make the Promised Land a delightsome land. The annual tithe was not given away; it was eaten by the tither and shared with the Levties. The purpose of the annual tithe was to rejoice before God and to learn to fear Him because the fact that they had this food was that God supplied the necessary climate to provide it, as long as they obeyed. The tithe had nothing to do with anyone's economic income or outgo or anything that had to do with man's earnings or work that man could claim credit for.

The idea that the economy and culture of this time was primarily agrarian, and that therefore we today are supposed to tithe money is not correct. The culture at that time was fully monetary, and the Israelites continued to tithe only crops and livestock (Mat 23:23; Luk 11:42) all the way until the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. The fact that the tithe laws were for crops and livestock has nothing to do with the economy and culture of Israel, but from God's purpose in the Holy Land. The tithe laws only applied to national Israel, just like the Levitical priesthood only applied to national Israel. There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about tithing that in any way applied to Christians: there is no money tithing, and there is no church tithing.

New Testament giving has nothing to do with the tithe laws in any way, shape, or form. It is not even a succession or cancelation of the tithe laws. It is a completely different issue--apples and oranges. The tithe was the legal agricultural tax and welfare system of the nation of Israel. New Testament giving is individual Christians giving money, time, food, or whatever to meet needs in the church or anywhere. There is no correlation or overlap of any kind.

 

Very informative. Thank you.

 

matt,

Welcome to BB. :wavey:

This comment is the key to your answer. In the Mosaic law, there were 3 areas of application. There was, of course, the spiritual application of some of the laws (10 commandments), there was the religious application of some (ceremonies, tabernacle, etc.), and there were the governmental applications (stoning, tithing, etc.).

You see, the Jews were there own government and it was by the tithe that welfare was administered to the poor and infirm. Did those poor have to pay in? Well, no.

Of all the OT law, the one law that the church can't seem to say is "dead" is the tithe. The early church set up a socialist-style economy that said "from each according to his ability to each according to his need." They overdid it but the idea is a) give as the Spirit moves and b) stop dragging Christians back under the law.

skypair

 

Prove what, that not giving is a lack of trust in God, lol, that seems common knowledge to most christians, it seems to have missed you.

 

When we first started going to church and were saved we had 2 young children and less then $8,000 a year, and we still gave. God taught us to trust Him with our money.

 

But that is a different subject than the doctrine of the Old Testament tithe as taught today. I don't think anyone who believes "tithing" should not be taught in the Church today would disagree with your above statement. When is the last time you heard a tithe preaching pastor preach from this text:

Deu 14:22 You shall truly tithe all the increase of your seed that the field brings forth year by year.
Deu 14:23 And you shall eat before Jehovah your God in the place which He shall choose to place His name there, the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the first-born of your herds and of your flocks, so that you may learn to fear Jehovah your God always
Deu 14:24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry it, or if the place is too far from you, which Jehovah your God shall choose to set His name there, when Jehovah your God has blessed you,
Deu 14:25 then you shall turn it into silver and bind up the silver in your hand, and shall go to the place which Jehovah your God shall choose. Deu 14:26 And you shall pay that silver for whatever your soul desires, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatever your soul desires. And you shall eat there before Jehovah your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household


I think next time I'm on vacation I'll spend my "tithe" money on whiskey and women.:laugh:

 

Christians are to be taught to tithe. Tithing is so up there with prayer and time in the word and essential to having a relationship with Christ. I went back home this weekend and went to my mom and dads church and the next 3 weeks of sermons are a series on tithing and since I got to listen to the 1st one the Pastor really made sense. Its not easy to give up that 10% but look at what the Lord has blessed you with. A year ago I was living with my husband in our home with our kids and 2 incomes. A year later we are divorced, I am living on one income plus whenever he pays the support I receive that but the Lord has been so good to me. I have a job where I can afford my bills, afford groceries and God has given me the strength to balance working outside the home and coming home and being mom to our boys and running my home and all of my bills are paid and I am blessed to tithe his 10% plus an extra offering on all income into my home. Malachi 3:8 spoke volumes to me--Why do you rob Me?....That really hit me. Why do I rob the Lord who has kept me on the right path all these tumultous times? My pastor at the church in my town has another analogy that I use when people tell me they dont have to tithe and I try and tell them its part of having a relationship with the Lord--God is the blessor, we are blessed by Him and He desires us to be blessings to others. I dont think I can explain it any better than that. For me tithing is a part of worship to the Lord and I am so glad my parents taught me how important tithing is in my walk with Him.

 

The ENTIRE book of Malachi is addressed to the priests:

The entire book of Malachi is addressed to the priests.
The priests were robbing God in tithes by stealing them from their Levite brethren and the poor by routing them from the public storehouse chambers in the Temple to their own private chambers (Neh 10, 13).
The priests were robbing God in burnt offerings by offering polluted bread and blemished animals on the altars in the Temple. They brought offerings, but God did not accept them (Mal 1,2).