IFB Cultic Element

[TomVols]

In your opinion is there a cultic element in the independent Baptist movement, and if so, what should be done about it?

Yes.

I spent most of my early life in IFB circles, and a time many years ago connected to the IFB. In the early part, the church I was part of did not preach Christ. The Bible was not used, but the KJV was praised above any other so-called devil's translation. All I knew was that the church hated Southern Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. and loved pentecostalism while hating pentecostals.

In the second stage, again the KJV was praised and exalted more than Christ. Christ was preached, but in a very man-centered way. Easy believism was putting it mildly. All you had to do was walk an aisle. No life change, no repentance, just walk an aisle. Hero worship was the norm. Man was at the center of all things. The glory of God and faithfulness to the Word? Lost concepts.

How is this fixxed? Gospel believing churches must rise up. False doctrine must be confronted. False churches must be purged.

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

I just read the whole thread, and PASTOR MHG is the only one who got it right. There are many, many IFB groups, some quite different. So when the OP lumped us all together, I was disappointed. Does the OP mean GARB, FBF, SBF, BBF, or WBF types? Each of these groups are distinctively different. Outside of these fellowships are the independent independents who don't even think it's right to be in a fellowship!

When I was growing up we were all pretty much one body. So John R. Rice could be close friends with GARB evangelist Bob Sumner while also being close to SBF stalwart Lee Roberson. BBF churches could have Rice in to preach while disagreeing with him on storehouse tithing.

The movement is much larger now (10,000 churches by conservative estimate), and it is a big mistake to lump us all together as the OP does. So, I have supporting churches which are strictly KJVO, while others use the NKJV. I have supporting churches who might agree with rapprochement with the SBC, but others which think the SBC still has a long way to go to get the liberals out of its midst.

Yeah, after moving from Hawaii and coming to Texas to be stationed, I made the mistake of just looking for IFBS and visiting them all assuming that they would all be pretty much the same.

We visited 8 or so and they were all different and most of them to the extreme. One IFB pastor told me that Ruckman was too liberal and didn't take the KJV issue far enough. This guy said other things to me that were troubling. At yet another IFB church we visited it was pretty different with all of the clapping and such. I thouhgt the snakes would be coming out next. At another IFB church they were more contemporary than any SBC I have ever been inside. And then there was one that was scary; almost cultish like. It reminded me of the military as everyone was sitting down and waiting for the commander to enter the room so we could stand up at attention. They cheered for him and this pastor was a bully! In the middle of the sermon he would scream at kids that were whispering and he told them they would grow up to be axe murderers. Then at the altar call every single member went to the altar except for my family. It was as if they were scared of him and were forced to go.

Anyway, there were 4 of the 8 that were real solid and balanced and thank the Lord that he led us to one where the pastor stresses balance. He doesn't take one issue and constantly harp on it every single time the doors are opened.

Don't ever just assume that all IFBs are the same. Do your research and ask the pastor questions and review their Constitution and statement of faith thoroughly...

 

[npetreley]

One IFB pastor told me that Ruckman was too liberal and didn't take the KJV issue far enough.

How much farther could he take it? Shoot all non-KJV users on sight?

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

How much farther could he take it? Shoot all non-KJV users on sight?

I don't remember all of the details but he kept saying that nobody in the church was allowed to look at the Greek or use an concordance, which I think Ruckman did use some of the time. This pastor told me that if anyone was ever teaching or speaking and defined a Greek word or tried to explain what a KJV word really meant he would be gone!

 

[npetreley]

I don't remember all of the details but he kept saying that nobody in the church was allowed to look at the Greek or use an concordance, which I think Ruckman did use some of the time. This pastor told me that if anyone was ever teaching or speaking and defined a Greek word or tried to explain what a KJV word really meant he would be gone!

WOW! Can't allow them pea-brains to try and interpret things for themselves, eh? I didn't know IFB had a pope.

 

[John of Japan]

Yeah, that Bible signing thing kind of unnerves me as well. The picture on the wall thing, sounds idolatrous, no?

I would like to say to please note that this isn't by any means specific to IFB's alone, it happens all over the denominational spectrum.

Oh, come now. Pictures of preachers on the wall sounds idolatrous? I constantly see this lack of understanding of true idolatry on the BB. I live in a country where I constantly see idolatry: bowing to idols, praying to ancestors, offering things to idols, etc. Having a picture of a favorite preacher on the wall is by no means idolatrous unless you bow or pray to it--and who does that!

Concerning signing Bibles, people occasionally also decry this on the BB, and when they do I always wonder, "Scripture...?" I recently was given a book by one of my favorite scholars, and he graciously signed it and put his favorite Bible verse under the signature. I was pleased, because it gave me a memory of him to take with me. This is what preachers do who sign Bibles. They almost always put their favorite verse under their name, which to me is a blessing, and they leave the believer with a good memory. How can that be bad? :type:

 

[Ulsterman]

Having a picture of a favorite preacher on the wall is by no means idolatrous unless you bow or pray to it--and who does that!

The late Jack Hyles did! And the picture in question was of your grandfather John R. Rice. His secretary told me in person that as Hyles left the office each day he would first speak to the picture of his dead mother that hung on the wall, and then Dr. Rice, to whom he would remark, "Dr. Rice, I'm going to save America." I remember well thinking how I might explain such strange behaviour to Roman Catholic converts in Ireland who had Sacred Heart pictures on their walls to which they spoke.

 

[mnw]

...he would first speak to the picture of his dead mother that hung on the wall, and then Dr. Rice...

Two questions:

1. Why not a picture of his mother when she was alive (You said it was a picture of his dead mother...)

2. How did he get Dr. Rice to stay on the wall? (Or was it a picture?)

 

[Ulsterman]

Two questions:

1. Why not a picture of his mother when she was alive (You said it was a picture of his dead mother...)

2. How did he get Dr. Rice to stay on the wall? (Or was it a picture?)

For those who have difficulty with the complicated structures of the English language, allow me to explain: His secretary told me in person that as Hyles left the office each day he would first speak to the picture of his mother, who was deceased at that time, that hung on the wall, and then to the portrait of Dr. Rice, to which he would remark, "Dr. Rice, I'm going to save America."

Honestly! Some people

 

[John of Japan]

The late Jack Hyles did! And the picture in question was of your grandfather John R. Rice. His secretary told me in person that as Hyles left the office each day he would first speak to the picture of his dead mother that hung on the wall, and then Dr. Rice, to whom he would remark, "Dr. Rice, I'm going to save America." I remember well thinking how I might explain such strange behaviour to Roman Catholic converts in Ireland who had Sacred Heart pictures on their walls to which they spoke.

Yes, I've heard this, and I disapprove. It was near idolatrous. However, remember, Prayer: Asking and Receiving, the best seller ever on prayer. Prayer is asking, as Grandad taught. Is simply talking to the dead idolatry? I don't think so. It is when you consider the dead to be divine, and capable of granting answers to prayer that it becomes idolatry. In Japan, the dead are considered to have become hotoke, or an enlightened Buddha. However, Hyles simply considered the dead to be in Heaven listening.

John R. Rice himself used to tell of going to his mother's grave and saying, "Mom, I'll see you again." And Ray Hart wrote and recorded a song based on that with John R. Rice's voice in the background. Incredibly moving? Yes! Idolatry? No! :type:

 

[John of Japan]

Two questions:

1. Why not a picture of his mother when she was alive (You said it was a picture of his dead mother...)

2. How did he get Dr. Rice to stay on the wall? (Or was it a picture?)

Now, mnw, have you been hanging around Pipedude? That's his kind of humor! :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Bro. Williams]

Oh, come now. Pictures of preachers on the wall sounds idolatrous? I constantly see this lack of understanding of true idolatry on the BB. I live in a country where I constantly see idolatry: bowing to idols, praying to ancestors, offering things to idols, etc. Having a picture of a favorite preacher on the wall is by no means idolatrous unless you bow or pray to it--and who does that!

Concerning signing Bibles, people occasionally also decry this on the BB, and when they do I always wonder, "Scripture...?" I recently was given a book by one of my favorite scholars, and he graciously signed it and put his favorite Bible verse under the signature. I was pleased, because it gave me a memory of him to take with me. This is what preachers do who sign Bibles. They almost always put their favorite verse under their name, which to me is a blessing, and they leave the believer with a good memory. How can that be bad? :type:

[personal attack deleted] if you think that some of these preachers are not made into gods or demigods. (For many have mentioned with the explicit following some of them have without warrant.)


Furthermore,
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

~This verse gives little credit to the main definition of idolatry that we all know (that which you are familiar with in Japan). Yet it gives us one of those, 2nd definitions, that anything that is put above God is idolatry. Let's see another verse along the same lines.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:


Technically speaking though, Most of the idolatry, that is present in modern culture, is that of Ezek. 14:1-11, in the heart!


In regards to the signing of Bibles, I said it unnerves me. I gave no scripture to say that it was a sin. I just don't prefer it. My pastor has signed a Bible or two I am sure (he preaches at an adult daycare and they are into that, for one). I even had a Bible signed by two pastors as well. I said it unnerves me, I don't like it. It reminds me too much of the old music circle I was once a part of. It is too close to the old "man worship". I would rather be remembered as too conservative though, than too liberal. To each his own.

 

[av1611jim]

You are a fool if you think that some of these preachers are not made into gods or demigods. (For many have mentioned with the explicit following some of them have without warrant.)


Furthermore,
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

~This verse gives little credit to the main definition of idolatry that we all know (that which you are familiar with in Japan). Yet it gives us one of those, 2nd definitions, that anything that is put above God is idolatry. Let's see another verse along the same lines.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:


Technically speaking though, Most of the idolatry, that is present in modern culture, is that of Ezek. 14:1-11, in the heart!


In regards to the signing of Bibles, I said it unnerves me. I gave no scripture to say that it was a sin. I just don't prefer it. My pastor has signed a Bible or two I am sure (he preaches at an adult daycare and they are into that, for one). I even had a Bible signed by two pastors as well. I said it unnerves me, I don't like it. It reminds me too much of the old music circle I was once a part of. It is too close to the old "man worship". I would rather be remembered as too conservative though, than too liberal. To each his own.

Although it may be true that certain individuals may "idolize" a well known preacher; it is NOT true that those people are putting those preachers above God. This is called guilt by association and is a fallacy in logic my friend. Those preachers will be the FIRST to point you to Christ, not themselves. And they who hold those preachers in admiration, generally, do not do so to the exclusion of Christ in their own lives. Hence; this is NOT idolatry. Paul even had to deal with this and what did he say? He said that he is nothing, Apollos is nothing, etc. He pointed them to Christ. which is what these self same preachers would do if you were to speak to them.

 

[Ulsterman]

Hyles simply considered the dead to be in Heaven listening.

I appreciate what you are saying, but what difference is there between Hyles' actions and the Roman Catholic's praying to the saints? If this is not idolatrous in the strictest sense, surely it is "cultic" in character?

BTW, for those who are interested, I am not looking to redirect this discussion to the faults and failings of Jack Hyles, just making a point in keeping with this thread.

 

[Bro. Williams]

Although it may be true that certain individuals may "idolize" a well known preacher; it is NOT true that those people are putting those preachers above God.

So you are saying "idolizing" a person is not idolatry? You may want to look up the definition! :laugh:

 

[John of Japan]

You are a fool if you think that some of these preachers are not made into gods or demigods. (For many have mentioned with the explicit following some of them have without warrant.)

I categorically deny that any IFB preachers are made into gods. Now, for that you have called me a fool. I suggest that calling a brother a fool is far more clearly opposed by our Lord Jesus Christ than signing Bibles or putting a picture on the wall is condemned in Scripture. I suggest you bow to the Lord and ask forgiveness for calling me a fool.

 

[John of Japan]

I appreciate what you are saying, but what difference is there between Hyles' actions and the Roman Catholic's praying to the saints? If this is not idolatrous in the strictest sense, surely it is "cultic" in character?

BTW, for those who are interested, I am not looking to redirect this discussion to the faults and failings of Jack Hyles, just making a point in keeping with this thread.

Well, Ulsterman, I'll agree that Bro. Hyles' actions towards a picture of my grandfather are somewhat cultic. However, it is my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that Catholics actually ask the saints for help. If so, that means they are trying to make the saints into divine beings that can answer their prayers, and that is idolatry. I really don't think that was Bro. Hyles' attitude towards my grandfather, at least not that I've ever heard.

 

[John of Japan]

Although it may be true that certain individuals may "idolize" a well known preacher; it is NOT true that those people are putting those preachers above God. This is called guilt by association and is a fallacy in logic my friend. Those preachers will be the FIRST to point you to Christ, not themselves. And they who hold those preachers in admiration, generally, do not do so to the exclusion of Christ in their own lives. Hence; this is NOT idolatry. Paul even had to deal with this and what did he say? He said that he is nothing, Apollos is nothing, etc. He pointed them to Christ. which is what these self same preachers would do if you were to speak to them.

Well said, Jim. :thumbs:

 

[Bro. Williams]

I categorically deny that any IFB preachers are made into gods. Now, for that you have called me a fool. I suggest that calling a brother a fool is far more clearly opposed by our Lord Jesus Christ than signing Bibles or putting a picture on the wall is condemned in Scripture. I suggest you bow to the Lord and ask forgiveness for calling me a fool.

I trow not. Am I therefore become your enemy becuase I tell you the truth?

 

[John of Japan]

I trow not. Am I therefore become your enemy becuase I tell you the truth?

No. You have become a transgressor because you called me a fool.

If it is the truth, prove it to me. Tell me one single case you know of where an IFB believer prayed to a dead preacher (not just talked) or bowed down to a living preacher or the photograph or statue of a live or dead preacher.

Along with another missionary, I once had a Japanese woman bow down to us and say, "You are like gods." Of course, we immediately stopped her and said we weren't. Nothing remotely similar to this happens in IFB churches and you know it.

I have preached in hundreds of churches down through the years in both Japan and America, and I have never seen idol worship in one or among IFB believers. It is yours to prove.