Ignorance-OK, Ignorance+Arrogance- EVIL

[Luke2427]

It is okay to be ignorant and uneducated if you have not had access to that which would make you wiser.

There is nothing evil about that.

But that ignorance becomes EXTREMELY EVIL when it is coupled with arrogance.

That arrogance is revealed when people who have no reason to think that they have sufficient knowledge of something go ahead and preach their ideas anyway.

I think many educated Christians miss this. They see people spew all kinds of ignorance on a site like baptistboard and preach all kinds of ignorance in the pulpit and they think- "Well, that's pretty dumb but there doing the best they can."

But it's darker than that. It takes a tremendous amount of arrogance to be very ignorant of something but speak authoritatively on it anyway.

And to do it when it comes to something as sacred and powerful as the word of God- it's like breaking into and running through a jet fuel refinery loaded with hundreds of people tossing lit torches everywhere. You'd have to be VERY ARROGANT to be so reckless.

Paul was very compassionate towards ignorant people so long as they were humble enough to keep their ignorance to themselves.

But he OBLITERATED ignorant people who lacked the humility to keep it to themselves- who preached their ignorance recklessly.

We see this in the following two passages:

I Corinthians 8

1Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

7Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 13Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

Compassion for ignorant brethren over their ignorance concerning meat.

Now watch the difference in tone here:

I Timothy 4

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

What's the difference?

In the Timothy passage these people are not just ignorant about meat- they are PREACHING their ignorance. And Paul holds no punches. He says these people have departed from the faith. They are led by demon spirits and they preach doctrines of devils.

It is when you take your personal convictions that are based in ignorance and make them public- go to promoting them. That is when you cross from an ignorance that is ok to a poisonous concoction of ignorance and arrogance that makes it VERY, VERY EVIL. These people have become self-righteous and dangerous.

Now, I get rough on here sometimes. But to be honest, I think Paul would too- particularly when ignorant legalism and phariseeism is preached on here.

 

[Luke2427]

I want to offer a quick addendum.

What I mean by ignorance is not everybody who has not been to bible college or seminary.

There are people who study the Bible and the commentaries and other helps that God has blessed us with throughout the ages.

These people are rarely ignorant.

I'm talking about people who don't know how to interpret the Scriptures, often people who think the Holy Ghost is all they need and they don't need the help of teachers with which God gifted the church, or people who simply don't have halfway decent biblical support for their positions.

I honestly believe, and I think all Christians OUGHT TO BELIEVE, that these people are very dangerous.

That's why we have books of the Bible like Galatians and Jude.

 

[Bronconagurski]

It is okay to be ignorant and uneducated if you have not had access to that which would make you wiser.

There is nothing evil about that.

But that ignorance becomes EXTREMELY EVIL when it is coupled with arrogance.

That arrogance is revealed when people who have no reason to think that they have sufficient knowledge of something go ahead and preach their ideas anyway.

I think many educated Christians miss this. They see people spew all kinds of ignorance on a site like baptistboard and preach all kinds of ignorance in the pulpit and they think- "Well, that's pretty dumb but there doing the best they can."

But it's darker than that. It takes a tremendous amount of arrogance to be very ignorant of something but speak authoritatively on it anyway.

And to do it when it comes to something as sacred and powerful as the word of God- it's like breaking into and running through a jet fuel refinery loaded with hundreds of people tossing lit torches everywhere. You'd have to be VERY ARROGANT to be so reckless.

Paul was very compassionate towards ignorant people so long as they were humble enough to keep their ignorance to themselves.

But he OBLITERATED ignorant people who lacked the humility to keep it to themselves- who preached their ignorance recklessly.

We see this in the following two passages:

I Corinthians 8


Compassion for ignorant brethren over their ignorance concerning meat.

Now watch the difference in tone here:

I Timothy 4



What's the difference?

In the Timothy passage these people are not just ignorant about meat- they are PREACHING their ignorance. And Paul holds no punches. He says these people have departed from the faith. They are led by demon spirits and they preach doctrines of devils.

Now, I get rough on here sometimes. But to be honest, I think Paul would too- particularly when ignorant legalism and phariseeism is preached on here.

You asked what is the difference and proceed to say that it was the people were preaching their ignorance. That is not the difference. In the first example, Paul is dealing with brothers in Christ. In the second one, he is dealing with apostates. You know, unbelievers energized by Satan. Of course Paul deals more harshly with them. They were probably into asceticism. Let me ask you: Are all teetotaler Christians apostates? You have used isogesis to try and prove your point, and that, my friend, is false teaching as well.

 

[Gina B]

Are you listening to yourself?

1. You are using a passage very commonly known by those who have studied it to be a prophecy likely concerning the Catholic church, who forbids marriage for priests and HOW many altar boy scandals have we heard? They also have their fish Fridays and meat is wrong that day. Seems to fit! Animals were created. Grapes were created. Grain was created. To my knowledge, there were no bottles of beer sitting there ready to go. It's not a given creation from above, believe it or not!

2. You went from a thread where you advocated the daily use of alcohol, the DAILY use, and even implied it is a sin not to do so, then claim it is evil, not just a disagreement, but evil of me to say this is wrong? That it's preaching?

Since you're preaching so hard that daily drinking is good and that saying it is wrong to advocate it is evil and against scripture, where is your proof that daily drinking is correct and part of the commandments? You're preaching it as such, please back it up.

3. This argument has gone on over and over and over on this board through the years. Go do a search if you want to see how many times the issue has been thoroughly discussed. There's nothing LEFT after all the scriptural proof has been discussed but to try to appeal to common sense.

4. Out of curiosity, what is your approximate age?

5. Why do you seem so angry over this issue? Why is the consumption of alcohol that important to you?

 

[Luke2427]

.....

5. Why do you seem so angry over this issue? Why is the consumption of alcohol that important to you?

I've addressed your arguments about alcohol on the thread about alcohol.

This is the only point that has to do with this thread.

Phariseeism and arrogant ignorance should make ALL CHRISTIANS angry.

It made Paul angry as we see in the text above.

Jesus was angry about it.

I don't know of anything more worthy of anger than this.

It may be the biggest hindrance to the Kingdom of God and the Great Commission in the history of Christianity.

Christians SHOULD be angry about this.

 

[Gina B]

Are you angry with yourself for preaching the daily use of alcohol when it is not to be found in Scripture?

Perhaps a break from the topic and coming back after putting some thought into that would be helpful.

 

[Luke2427]

You asked what is the difference and proceed to say that it was the people were preaching their ignorance. That is not the difference. In the first example, Paul is dealing with brothers in Christ. In the second one, he is dealing with apostates. You know, unbelievers energized by Satan. Of course Paul deals more harshly with them. They were probably into asceticism. Let me ask you: Are all teetotaler Christians apostates? You have used isogesis to try and prove your point, and that, my friend, is false teaching as well.

This is not a bad argument. I appreciate it.

It is wrong however.

Peter was most assuredly a Christian and Paul ripped him for the same reason.

The PRINCIPLE is what deserves fierce condemnation REGARDLESS of the PERSONS who are promoting it.

If Christians promote phariseeism- they should be fiercely resisted.

If apostates promote phariseeism- THEY should be fiercely resisted.

This is what Paul taught Timothy and Titus.

And we need a revival of this teaching again.

 

[Luke2427]

Are you angry with yourself for preaching the daily use of alcohol when it is not to be found in Scripture?

Perhaps a break from the topic and coming back after putting some thought into that would be helpful.

Then you should do this.

I hope it does help you. :thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

I plead guilty on all counts. I don't understand the point of this thread!

 

[Gina B]

I plead guilty on all counts. I don't understand the point of this thread!

Oh, it's no biggie. He's mad at me because I'm appalled at his admonition (on another thread) for Christians to drink alcohol on a daily basis and him saying that it might be a sin not too.

Now I'm evil, and the scriptures are apparently the proof of that.

That's about it. I'm up because of storms and waiting on my daughter to get home from a game, didn't mean to poke the bear but I did and now he's grumpy.

In the meantime, I'm sipping on some delicious Earl Grey tea and hoping that nobody goes to bed angry. It's too nice of a night for that!

 

[Skandelon]

Tea? Ummmm...watch out for that caffeine, it will get you!

 

[Luke2427]

I plead guilty on all counts. I don't understand the point of this thread!

You plead guilty for not knowing what you are talking about and still haphazardly promoting it anyway and as it pertains to none other than the BIBLE????


I don't think you are guilty of this.

 

[OldRegular]

Oh, it's no biggie. He's mad at me because I'm appalled at his admonition (on another thread) for Christians to drink alcohol on a daily basis and him saying that it might be a sin not too.

Now I'm evil, and the scriptures are apparently the proof of that.

That's about it. I'm up because of storms and waiting on my daughter to get home from a game, didn't mean to poke the bear but I did and now he's grumpy.

In the meantime, I'm sipping on some delicious Earl Grey tea and hoping that nobody goes to bed angry. It's too nice of a night for that!

I like Earl Grey tea, no sugar! I'm into green tea now though, makes up for all that beer I don't drink.:laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

You plead guilty for not knowing what you are talking about and still haphazardly promoting it anyway and as it pertains to none other than the BIBLE????


I don't think you are guilty of this.

Your semantics still elude me!:BangHead: So I will bow out!

 

[Bronconagurski]

This is not a bad argument. I appreciate it.

It is wrong however.

Peter was most assuredly a Christian and Paul ripped him for the same reason.

The PRINCIPLE is what deserves fierce condemnation REGARDLESS of the PERSONS who are promoting it.

If Christians promote phariseeism- they should be fiercely resisted.

If apostates promote phariseeism- THEY should be fiercely resisted.

This is what Paul taught Timothy and Titus.

And we need a revival of this teaching again.

You are correct that Paul did correct Peter. That makes a better argument since Peter was a believer. But Peter was going against the already revealed will go God to him by not eating with the Gentile believers. This was a blantant form of prejudice against Gentiles as believers, not an issue of Christian freedom and conscience. But you are correct, he came down harshly on Peter.

 

[Gina B]

I like Earl Grey tea, no sugar! I'm into green tea now though, makes up for all that beer I don't drink.:laugh:

It's the scent of Bergomet in it that I love! I'm also into green tea. Lots. Click on the pictures in the link to make them bigger and you'll see what my one cupboard and the door of my fridge looks like. No need for alcohol! https://picasaweb.google.com/114085104495067895832/Tea

 

[kyredneck]

And as for my sheep, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet, and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet. Ezek 34:19

I've addressed your arguments about alcohol on the thread about alcohol.

This is the only point that has to do with this thread.

Phariseeism and arrogant ignorance should make ALL CHRISTIANS angry.

It made Paul angry as we see in the text above.

Jesus was angry about it.

I don't know of anything more worthy of anger than this.

It may be the biggest hindrance to the Kingdom of God and the Great Commission in the history of Christianity.

Christians SHOULD be angry about this.

I know the point you're trying to make, and totally agree with you. 'Phariseeism and arrogant ignorance' has probably driven more of God's little lambs away from the Kingdom than anything else. NOTHING new here.

 

[quantumfaith]

I think arrogance itself does more to push people away from the Gospel message . Much more so than ignorance. Arrogance coupled with ignorance is essentially a coup de gras. And the definition of "ignorance" within the domain of Christianity is sometime easy and sometimes in the mind of the beholder.

 

[Luke2427]

I think arrogance itself does more to push people away from the Gospel message . Much more so than ignorance. Arrogance coupled with ignorance is essentially a coup de gras. And the definition of "ignorance" within the domain of Christianity is sometime easy and sometimes in the mind of the beholder.

There's really no argument here.

I think whether we all admit it or not we all believe the OP is true.


Think about snake handling pentecostals.

Think about preachers that preach to their communities that women will go to hell if they wear pants.

Think of Fred Phelps.

What is the problem with these people. The first word that comes to mind is hatred. But that just applies to Phelps in this illustration and even with Phelps one ought to ask, "Why is he so hateful?" And it's ignorance coupled with arrogance. He's stupid enough to really believe these things and he is arrogant enough to preach them.

But this is not only true of these people.

It's true of people who have little to no hermeneutical training, little to no knowledge of Christian history, etc...

Such people OUGHT to be humble enough to say, "Since I have so little training in these areas I could very well be wrong about these things. And the LAST thing I want to do is spread error as it pertains to God and his Word!"

But they don't have that humility.

They are VERY arrogant.

And they preach CONSTANTLY for doctrine the traditions of men.

They preach hurtful doctrines like King James Only.

They preach that things are sin which God commends.

They preach that things are right which God condemns.

And they "deceive the hearts of the simple (ignorant)."

 

[Revmitchell]

Think about some of the Calvinists on this board.