Ignorance-OK, Ignorance+Arrogance- EVIL

[quantumfaith]

There's really no argument here.

I think whether we all admit it or not we all believe the OP is true.


Think about snake handling pentecostals.

Think about preachers that preach to their communities that women will go to hell if they wear pants.

Think of Fred Phelps.

What is the problem with these people. The first word that comes to mind is hatred. But that just applies to Phelps in this illustration and even with Phelps one ought to ask, "Why is he so hateful?" And it's ignorance coupled with arrogance. He's stupid enough to really believe these things and he is arrogant enough to preach them.

But this is not only true of these people.

It's true of people who have little to no hermeneutical training, little to no knowledge of Christian history, etc...

Such people OUGHT to be humble enough to say, "Since I have so little training in these areas I could very well be wrong about these things. And the LAST thing I want to do is spread error as it pertains to God and his Word!"

But they don't have that humility.

They are VERY arrogant.

And they preach CONSTANTLY for doctrine the traditions of men.

They preach hurtful doctrines like King James Only.

They preach that things are sin which God commends.

They preach that things are right which God condemns.

And they "deceive the hearts of the simple (ignorant)."

The highlighted is an attitude and posture that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US should strive to demonstrate, regardless of how learned we consider ourselves to be.

 

[Don]

I appreciate the back-and-forth between Luke and QuantumFaith; and Luke, I appreciate your second post further explaining your position outlined in the first post.

I would add one thing to what you've written, piggy-backing on what QuantumFaith brought up: Arrogance is the problem.
Arrogance + Ignorance = bad news; Arrogance + Schooling = bad news.

And if you need an example of that, see "pharisee"; or, in our modern world, muslim clerics, some catholic priests, some baptist pastors, etc. They had/have all the proper schooling; but also have the arrogance to believe they're better than their fellow man because of their schooling.

 

[Luke2427]

I appreciate the back-and-forth between Luke and QuantumFaith; and Luke, I appreciate your second post further explaining your position outlined in the first post.

I would add one thing to what you've written, piggy-backing on what QuantumFaith brought up: Arrogance is the problem.
Arrogance + Ignorance = bad news; Arrogance + Schooling = bad news.

And if you need an example of that, see "pharisee"; or, in our modern world, muslim clerics, some catholic priests, some baptist pastors, etc. They had/have all the proper schooling; but also have the arrogance to believe they're better than their fellow man because of their schooling.

Listen, I agree with you, brother, for the most part here.

But I would like you to consider a few things.

We all already agree that arrogance is a bad thing. That's why this thread does not focus on arrogance. It would be like starting a thread on whether or not God exists.

We all agree.

But here is the problem and the impetus for this thread.

We do not seem to repudiate ignorance like we should. We tend to treat ignorance that is preached as if it is an innocent thing.

Now, arrogance is evil- BUT consider this anecdote.

You need heart surgery NOW. If you don't have it within the next half hour you are going to die. You are at a camp in the wilderness of Alaska a good six hour hike from the nearest hospital.

In the camp with you are about twenty five people. In that group there are 5 people who claim to know what is wrong with you and claim to be able to cut open your chest and fix the problem. The problem is that not one of them has been trained to do so. Each of them have their claim as to why they are certain they can perform the procedure. Two of them say they've seen it done dozens of times on TV. One of them says he has read The Encyclopedia of Medicine. The other two claim God speaks to them and told them that they could do it and that they will listen to the still small voice of God within them for instructions throughout the procedure.

Another man laughs at them. He calls them all idiots. He says, "You listen to these guys and they'll kill you. But I can save you. I am one of the best heart surgeons in the world- not to mention I am also the best looking!" But he really is a fantastic heart surgeon- even if he is arrogant.

Both the first group and the last man are arrogant. But which one can really save your life? Which ones stand the best chance of butchering you?

Arrogance by itself is not good- but it becomes DEADLY when coupled with ignorance.

 

[Luke2427]

The highlighted is an attitude and posture that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US should strive to demonstrate, regardless of how learned we consider ourselves to be.

I meant to give you credit for this and forgot.

But the other day you posted something about statistics in one of these threads to me.

It blew my mind. It was like foreign language. I am almost certain that you know immeasurably more than me about the way numbers, stats, etc... works.

I think it is obvious that you have had, AT LEAST, some undergrad training on these things.

And I think you'd, in an effort to give God the credit, admit that this is one of the areas in which God has gifted you.

I admit that I am illiterate compared to you along these lines.

But how did God gift you? Now this is important.

First of all, he probably gave you an interest and passion for this knowledge.

But what did he do next?

He empowered you to study. He did this in doubtlessly NUMEROUS ways. Maybe he provided money for you to go to school and to buy books. He made you willing to work hard and sacrifice or he might even have made your mind a sponge to absorb all the information given you.

This is what God does. He doesn't open your mind and pour it into your brain without you having studied and listened to lectures.

And there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to think that he does that when it comes to the Bible. In fact, Paul said, "STUDY to show thyself approved..."


But on this site and in pulpits across this country are men who think God speaks to them and is their own personal commentary. That they don't need teachers that God said were essential for the edification of the body.

And like the anecdote above, they are like untrained men willing to hack open a man's chest and perform heart surgery because they think that the thoughts that come into their mind when they read the Bible come from God and that's enough for them.

 

[Don]

Listen, I agree with you, brother, for the most part here.

But I would like you to consider a few things.

We all already agree that arrogance is a bad thing. That's why this thread does not focus on arrogance. It would be like starting a thread on whether or not God exists.

We all agree.

But here is the problem and the impetus for this thread.

We do not seem to repudiate ignorance like we should. We tend to treat ignorance that is preached as if it is an innocent thing.

Now, arrogance is evil- BUT consider this anecdote.

You need heart surgery NOW. If you don't have it within the next half hour you are going to die. You are at a camp in the wilderness of Alaska a good six hour hike from the nearest hospital.

In the camp with you are about twenty five people. In that group there are 5 people who claim to know what is wrong with you and claim to be able to cut open your chest and fix the problem. The problem is that not one of them has been trained to do so. Each of them have their claim as to why they are certain they can perform the procedure. Two of them say they've seen it done dozens of times on TV. One of them says he has read The Encyclopedia of Medicine. The other two claim God speaks to them and told them that they could do it and that they will listen to the still small voice of God within them for instructions throughout the procedure.

Another man laughs at them. He calls them all idiots. He says, "You listen to these guys and they'll kill you. But I can save you. I am one of the best heart surgeons in the world- not to mention I am also the best looking!" But he really is a fantastic heart surgeon- even if he is arrogant.

Both the first group and the last man are arrogant. But which one can really save your life? Which ones stand the best chance of butchering you?

Arrogance by itself is not good- but it becomes DEADLY when coupled with ignorance.

Luke, I'm not actually arguing with you. But give it a few minutes of thought, considering the pharisees as your analogy instead of the one you presented.. They were the most learned men of their culture in their time; and that spawned an arrogance that they were better than the multitudes, that only they could tell the multitudes what God expected and wanted.

Or perhaps you might consider that an "ignorance" itself (not understanding how much they didn't actually understand).

So yes, ignorance coupled with arrogance is deadly. But what is intelligence without humility?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, I'm not actually arguing with you. But give it a few minutes of thought, considering the pharisees as your analogy instead of the one you presented.. They were the most learned men of their culture in their time; and that spawned an arrogance that they were better than the multitudes, that only they could tell the multitudes what God expected and wanted.

Or perhaps you might consider that an "ignorance" itself (not understanding how much they didn't actually understand).

So yes, ignorance coupled with arrogance is deadly. But what is intelligence without humility?

I agree, Brother- I really do. Especially with that statement of yours that I bolded.

But the problem today to me does not seem to be well educated people who are arrogant ANYWHERE NEAR AS MUCH AS uneducated (and you know what I mean by that) people who are arrogant.

Give me the arrogant heart surgeon over the arrogant moron who thinks God talks to him.

Do you see what I mean?

The church would be BEST to have a humble well trained man in the pulpit. No doubt.

But the church would be BETTER OFF having a well trained man in the pulpit who is arrogant (God will likely fix his caboose in time) than a moron who does not know beans from apple butter about how to interpret Scripture but thinks God speaks to him and tells him things in his heart so he does not need to study much- who is JUST AS ARROGANT.

The first guy might step on some people while preaching faithfully the Word of God. This is not good. But the second guy is like the blind leading the blind and they will all fall off the cliff.


I wish there was an outcry against ignorant arrogance like the outcry that is so prevalent today against well trained people who are arrogant.

There does not seem to be the problem with ignorance in the pulpit that there once was. This is a TERRIBLE sign for our generation.

We are feelers rather than thinkers today.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

But the church would be BETTER OFF having a well trained man in the pulpit who is arrogant (God will likely fix his caboose in time) than a moron who does not know beans from apple butter about how to interpret Scripture but thinks God speaks to him and tells him things in his heart so he does not need to study much- who is JUST AS ARROGANT.

I have to say I agree here: Unfortunately, I think that "Pride" and "arrogance" are sins which almost all men in the pulpit are (for some reason) dangerously subject to, and they must intentionally guard against it at all times....better they at least not be ignoramuses. There are a lot of IFB'S who are perfect examples of this, not all by any means.

We are feelers rather than thinkers today.

This is by design IMO...This might be Satan's most powerful tool. It is the down-fall of our country as a whole. Even those with Knowledge are still not critical thinkers....They may know a million dis-jointed facts like someone who has memorized a Trivial Pursuit deck (my older brother) but they don't know what to DO!! with that information. I cite Bill Maher and his sycophants who think him ingenious as evidence.....Your witness.

 

[quantumfaith]

I agree, Brother- I really do. Especially with that statement of yours that I bolded.

But the problem today to me does not seem to be well educated people who are arrogant ANYWHERE NEAR AS MUCH AS uneducated (and you know what I mean by that) people who are arrogant.

Give me the arrogant heart surgeon over the arrogant moron who thinks God talks to him.

Do you see what I mean?

The church would be BEST to have a humble well trained man in the pulpit. No doubt.

But the church would be BETTER OFF having a well trained man in the pulpit who is arrogant (God will likely fix his caboose in time) than a moron who does not know beans from apple butter about how to interpret Scripture but thinks God speaks to him and tells him things in his heart so he does not need to study much- who is JUST AS ARROGANT.

The first guy might step on some people while preaching faithfully the Word of God. This is not good. But the second guy is like the blind leading the blind and they will all fall off the cliff.


I wish there was an outcry against ignorant arrogance like the outcry that is so prevalent today against well trained people who are arrogant.

There does not seem to be the problem with ignorance in the pulpit that there once was. This is a TERRIBLE sign for our generation.

We are feelers rather than thinkers today.

Luke, be careful not to completely "poo-poo" feelings and emotions. After all they too are God granted, and integral part of our created being. Point out yes, when you think someone espouses a theology completely and fundamentally on "feelings", speak with humility and corrective love. Remember, Matthew 9:36.

 

[Aaron]

:laugh:

It is okay to be ignorant and uneducated if you have not had access to that which would make you wiser.

There is nothing evil about that.

But that ignorance becomes EXTREMELY EVIL when it is coupled with arrogance.

That arrogance is revealed when people who have no reason to think that they have sufficient knowledge of something go ahead and preach their ideas anyway.

I think many educated Christians miss this. They see people spew all kinds of ignorance on a site like baptistboard and preach all kinds of ignorance in the pulpit and they think- "Well, that's pretty dumb but there doing the best they can."

But it's darker than that. It takes a tremendous amount of arrogance to be very ignorant of something but speak authoritatively on it anyway.

And to do it when it comes to something as sacred and powerful as the word of God- it's like breaking into and running through a jet fuel refinery loaded with hundreds of people tossing lit torches everywhere. You'd have to be VERY ARROGANT to be so reckless.

Paul was very compassionate towards ignorant people so long as they were humble enough to keep their ignorance to themselves.

But he OBLITERATED ignorant people who lacked the humility to keep it to themselves- who preached their ignorance recklessly.

We see this in the following two passages:

I Corinthians 8


Compassion for ignorant brethren over their ignorance concerning meat.

Now watch the difference in tone here:

I Timothy 4



What's the difference?

In the Timothy passage these people are not just ignorant about meat- they are PREACHING their ignorance. And Paul holds no punches. He says these people have departed from the faith. They are led by demon spirits and they preach doctrines of devils.

It is when you take your personal convictions that are based in ignorance and make them public- go to promoting them. That is when you cross from an ignorance that is ok to a poisonous concoction of ignorance and arrogance that makes it VERY, VERY EVIL. These people have become self-righteous and dangerous.

Now, I get rough on here sometimes. But to be honest, I think Paul would too- particularly when ignorant legalism and phariseeism is preached on here.

You just shot yourself in the foot with this post.

Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, be careful not to completely "poo-poo" feelings and emotions. After all they too are God granted, and integral part of our created being. Point out yes, when you think someone espouses a theology completely and fundamentally on "feelings", speak with humility and corrective love. Remember, Matthew 9:36.

I am not repudiating feelings. I feel like I shouldn't have to make this clarification. I am rebuking feelings not based in thought or reason.

Matthew 9:36 shows Jesus having compassion. I am certainly not against that. Who on earth would be?

But it says he had compassion on them BECAUSE they were as sheep with no shepherd....

He had a reason for it. It wasn't some ecstatic experience. It was a visible need. We should feel compassion in such circumstances.

Perhaps what I should have said was we are about experiences rather than being about thinking and learning.

And no... there's nothing wrong with experience if it is based in knowledge.

 

[Luke2427]

:laugh:You just shot yourself in the foot with this post.

Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth

Do you think that means that knowledge is a bad thing??

Do you think that means that ignorance is always accompanied by humility??

Because it does not mean either, Aaron.

 

[Aaron]

Do you think that means that knowledge is a bad thing??

Knowledge is a good thing, yet it brings forth thorns and briers from evil hearts.

Do you think that means that ignorance is always accompanied by humility??

Ignorance is a destructive thing, and Paul says he would not have us to be ignorant. His instructions aren't to support or to be sensitive to ignorance. He instructs us to be sensitive to and to support the weak.

Charity understands that.

 

[Luke2427]

Knowledge is a good thing, yet it brings forth thorns and briers from evil hearts.

Ignorance is a destructive thing, and Paul says he would not have us to be ignorant. His instructions aren't to support or to be sensitive to ignorance. He instructs us to be sensitive to and to support the weak.

Charity understands that.

So long as that ignorance is not accompanied by arrogance.

When one is ignorant but recognizes it and therefore doesn't risk leading others astray- this is fine.

We are patient and compassionate with these people. We hope to be able to gently bring them along to a deeper understanding.

But when one is ignorant and arrogant- you cannot be gentle with them. Arrogance does not respond to gentility.

That's why Paul said on one hand he'd eat no meat while the world stood if it made his brother to offend, but on the other hand he slammed people who PREACH against eating meats.

The difference is important.

I think it may be that the most dangerous thing in humanity is the combination of ignorance and arrogance.

 

[Aaron]

So long as that ignorance is not accompanied by arrogance.

When one is ignorant but recognizes it and therefore doesn't risk leading others astray- this is fine.

We are patient and compassionate with these people. We hope to be able to gently bring them along to a deeper understanding.

But when one is ignorant and arrogant- you cannot be gentle with them. Arrogance does not respond to gentility.

That's why Paul said on one hand he'd eat no meat while the world stood if it made his brother to offend, but on the other hand he slammed people who PREACH against eating meats.

The ones Paul was "slamming" were those who put their bellies above the consciences of their weaker brothers. By weak he does not mean "stupid" and "ignorant," as you erroneously and quite brazenly insisted elsewhere. Paul is slamming you.

I think it may be that the most dangerous thing in humanity is the combination of ignorance and arrogance.

Think what you want. God resists the proud whether he be knowledgeable or ignorant. I don't see more danger in God's resistance to one over the other. They are both rejected.

 

[Luke2427]

The ones Paul was "slamming" were those who put their bellies above the consciences of their weaker brothers. By weak he does not mean "stupid" and "ignorant," as you erroneously and quite brazenly insisted elsewhere. Paul is slamming you.

He is slamming people who are ignorant enough to think that it is a sin to not abstain from meats and ARROGANT enough to PREACH such nonsense.

Read I Timothy 4.

The weakness he is referring to in Romans and in Corinthians is ignorance. I Corinthians he talks about two groups of people in the passage about weakness. There are the "weaker brothers" and there are those who "have knowledge."

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the weakness is that he is referring to there.

Think what you want. God resists the proud whether he be knowledgeable or ignorant. I don't see more danger in God's resistance to one over the other. They are both rejected.

Madness.

I'll tell you what. The next major surgery you have, live what you preach here.

Go to a shaman instead of a surgeon who has training.

Find a very HUMBLE shaman and let him cut you open.


I said arrogance was bad. But it becomes exponentially worse when it resides in the breast of an idiot.

 

[Aaron]

Apples and oranges. We're not talking about carnal occupations, we're talking about the Kingdom of God. You're attempting to say that despite one's gluttony and arrogance, that one is more qualified to teach than another because of some knowledge which he thinks he may possess (but he that thinketh he knoweth anything knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know).

In the building of God's kingdom, Paul labored more than any, yet not he himself, but the grace of God in him. God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. If through the liberty of which you boast you destroy a weaker brother, how are you doing better than one who through ignorance yet in humility teaches that abstaining from certain meats and drinks is a righteous thing to do? They who abstain even in ignorance do not miss out of any blessing or benefit of the kingdom of God, but he who is driven by another's pride to stumble and violate his conscience is destroyed.

 

[Luke2427]

Apples and oranges. We're not talking about carnal occupations, we're talking about the Kingdom of God. You're attempting to say that despite one's gluttony and arrogance, that one is more qualified to teach than another because of some knowledge which he thinks he may possess (but he that thinketh he knoweth anything knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know).

In the building of God's kingdom, Paul labored more than any, yet not he himself, but the grace of God in him. God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. If through the liberty of which you boast you destroy a weaker brother, how are you doing better than one who through ignorance yet in humility teaches that abstaining from certain meats and drinks is a righteous thing to do? They who abstain even in ignorance do not miss out of any blessing or benefit of the kingdom of God, but he who is driven by another's pride to stumble and violate his conscience is destroyed.

We're not TALKING ABOUT ABSTAINERS AARON!!!

We're talking about people who PREACH TEETOTALISM.

Try very hard to actually address the argument, huh?

 

[Aaron]

We're not TALKING ABOUT ABSTAINERS AARON!!!

We're talking about people who PREACH TEETOTALISM.

Try very hard to actually address the argument, huh?

Abstinance/teetotalism, tomato/tomahto. Just substitute the term. The point's the same.

 

[Luke2427]

Abstinance/teetotalism, tomato/tomahto. Just substitute the term. The point's the same.

No it's not. It's not the same at all- not even close.

A person who practices PERSONAL ABSTINENCE is not the same a a person who PREACHES TEETOTALISM.

The first person can be just fine.

The last person is a Pharisee.

 

[dcorbett]

Dictionary.com cut and pasted here:

tee·to·tal·er

   /tiˈtoʊtlər, ˈtiˌtoʊt-/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled[tee-toht-ler, tee-toht-] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
noun a person who abstains totally from intoxicating drink.