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[Piper]

If someone cannot refute arguments against the doctrine they proclaim, they either use fallacious arguments or the ignore button. Go figure.

Not true. Some people think they can make up doctrines out of thin air and if they present long enough and complicated enough explanations, everyone has to either refute them point by point or be t'aint soers.

 

[37818]

The trick, when it can be done, to formulate a true Biblical argument, based on that Biblical truth, that cannot be either denied or refuted. Not easy.

 

[Piper]

The trick, when it can be done, to formulate a true Biblical argument, based on that Biblical truth, that cannot be either denied or refuted. Not easy.

We all believe that, even the people who teach baptismal regeneration. I was in the Church of Christ long enough to believe that they really believe that is an incontrovertible truth.

However, when we disagree on things central to the faith and someone holds a strange view, they need to be exposed as espousing a false view.

 

[kyredneck]

The trick, when it can be done, to formulate a true Biblical argument, based on that Biblical truth, that cannot be either denied or refuted. Not easy.

We all believe that, even the people who teach baptismal regeneration. I was in the Church of Christ long enough to believe that they really believe that is an incontrovertible truth.

It is a Biblical truth that cannot be denied or refuted, that, in order to be 'saved', water baptism was expected of the Jews of that day.

 

[Piper]

It is a Biblical truth that cannot be denied or refuted, that, in order to be 'saved', water baptism was expected of the Jews of that day.

Baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine.

 

[kyredneck]

Baptismal regeneration is a false doctrine.

Not talking about 'regeneration'.

 

[Piper]

Not talking about 'regeneration'.

Ok, you're talking about being saved. Salvation is never by works. Never is baptism required for salvation. NEVER.

 

[37818]

We all believe that, even the people who teach baptismal regeneration. I was in the Church of Christ long enough to believe that they really believe that is an incontrovertible truth.

However, when we disagree on things central to the faith and someone holds a strange view, they need to be exposed as espousing a false view.

Well, there are a few Biblical truths not held by a majority, that by that majority would call said Biblical truth as strange.

 

[kyredneck]

Ok, you're talking about being saved. Salvation is never by works. Never is baptism required for salvation. NEVER.

Lol, and you say it with such confidence! Water baptism was definitely required of the Jews of 'that generation' in order to be 'saved' - sozo:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

And herein lies what's meant by 'sozo' in the above passages:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

 

[Piper]

Lol, and you say it with such confidence! Water baptism was definitely required of the Jews of 'that generation' in order to be 'saved' - sozo:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16

38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him.
40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:
21 which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3

And herein lies what's meant by 'sozo' in the above passages:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3

So, you believe that salvation is by WORKS, specifically the work of baptism?

 

[kyredneck]

So, you believe that salvation is by WORKS, specifically the work of baptism?

Did you miss me stating that this is in reference to the 'Jews of that generation', i.e., those who crucified Christ and on whom all the righteous blood shed upon the land was going to come? Or are you intentionally making misleading statements?

Question: Every time you read the word 'saved', do you automatically take it to mean in the eternal sense, i.e., 'saved from hell'?

 

[Piper]

It is a Biblical truth that cannot be denied or refuted, that, in order to be 'saved', water baptism was expected of the Jews of that day.

Ok, you're talking about "saved " in a different sense than I am. End of conversation. My original comment was a Church of Christ doctrine called baptismal regeneration, where they believe that people are saved form eternal destruction by faith plus baptism. You tried to change the subject.

 

[kyredneck]

a Church of Christ doctrine called baptismal regeneration, where they believe that people are saved form eternal destruction by faith plus baptism. You tried to change the subject.

Perhaps a change of subject, but intended to be a teaching one. The passages I cited the CoC stupidly misapplied 'sozo' in the eternal sense. That's WHY their false doctrine.

 

[Piper]

Perhaps a change of subject, but intended to be a teaching one. The passages I cited the CoC stupidly misapplied 'sozo' in the eternal sense. That's WHY their false doctrine.

Ok. The overwhelming evidence, and you know it, and I know it, is that it is a false doctrine. My point here though is not to discuss that. My point is to say that even people who hold to false doctrines like that think that what they hold as true is absolutely clear and irrefutable. I've had long conversations with people in the Christian Church/Church of Christ and they will repeat the same verses over and over. When there are one or two verses that support something and the rest of scripture weighs against it, that particular interpretation is most likely wrong.

 

[Alan Gross]

Not true. Some people think they can make up doctrines out of thin air and if they present long enough and complicated enough explanations, everyone has to either refute them point by point or be t'aint soers.

It's O.K. to be cognisant of the Spiritual reality that you may be talking to the lost. They may need the Lord in salvation, so we can keep hammering them with what sin is (something they hardly ever refer to, at all, so they may not have an understanding of how hopeless and helpless we are without Jesus) and that Jesus died because of sin, just like theirs that they have and ARE, being placed on Him, (something they HATE and avoid like the plague), by a Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

So, preach the blood, brother. Slip it in there every chance you get.

It's just not O.K., here, to suggest to them they are lost, because we really just don't know (unless, they truly believe what they say, or profess to believe, or what they are taught).