IGNORING GREEK VERBS AFFECTS BAPTIST THEOLOGY

[JesusFan]

No, I absolutely am not inventing Greek rules. I am a Greek professor, and know the rules well.

See below.

Technically, participles are considered verbal adjectives, not normally verbal nouns. However, when a present participle is preceded by a Greek definite article, it is the substantival (like a noun) usage of the participle. See my other post for grammars that teach this. Greek adjectives do the same thing. If preceded by the article, they are being used as nouns.

I have to admit, I can't find where you mention a noun to prove your point. But again, almost all of the participles you refer to are substantival (used as a noun).

wow JOJ, you are "almost" forcing me to pick up and brush the dust off my Dr Wallace and Dr AT Robertson Greek Grammars now to follow this discussion

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

I'm going to lay out some rules of Greek grammar here that disprove what you are trying to say with your interpretation of the present participle of the Greek word for "believe," or πιστεύω. With each rule I spell out, I will give quotes from Greek grammars. (I have a bunch more I am not quoting. If these scholars don't convince you, nothing will.)


Rule 1: The present tense is often not continuative

Therefore, it is a great mistake to say that a present participle means we must keep believing or we will lose our salvation. The theologian must look at the context, in particular examining the main verb of the sentence to get the Aktionsart (a German word meaning “kind of action”).

“But it should be noted that the present indicative is also often aoristic and the future is usually so” (A. T. Robertson, A Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament,” p. 139).

“Some presents express punctiliar action and a few even express perfective action” (James Brooks and Carton Winbery, Syntax of New Testament Greek, p. 76).


Rule 2: When the article is before a participle, it is substantival.

This means it is working as a noun, not a verb. The Aktionsart is then diminished. In particular, ὁ πιστεύων (literally, “the believing one”) and other present participles of πιστεύω (“I believe”) should often be translated as just “the believer.” There is no other word in Koine Greek to mean believer.

“The participle, like an adjective, may be used in the place of a noun or other substantive. The participle itself then functions as a noun” (James Brooks and Carton Winbery, Syntax of New Testament Greek, p. 130).

“Like an adjective, the participle may also be used substantivally, that is, as a substantive, or noun” David Alan Black, Learn to Read New Testament Greek, 150).


Rule 3: The participle depends on the main verb for its Aktionsart, "kind of action'

Therefore, if the main verb is not a present tense, but a perfect tense or an aorist tense, the present participle points to that Aktionsart. In other words, participles cannot be the main verb. So, since there are numerous aorist or perfect main verbs in the examples given for “believing,” those verses prove just the opposite of the idea that one can lose his or her salvation. Those examples actually prove that salvation is one time only as per the aorist tense (looking at the action as a single whole) or perfect (past action with results remaining).

“It often turns out that a Present Participle alludes to an action with which the action of the main verb coincides” (C. F. D. Moule, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p. 99).

“Generally speaking, the present participle denotes action taking place at the same time as the action of the main verb” (David Alan Black, It’s Still Greek to Me, p. 124).

“The ruling consideration in interpreting participles is that they express something that is dependent on the main verb” (David Alan Black, It’s Still Greek to Me, p. 125).

Here are some examples from your list along the lines of this third rule.

1.
John 3:16 Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον, ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται, ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

The verb “perish” is an aorist subjunctive, showing that a believer will not perish as an event. In other words, perishing is a one time event, not something that is possible over and over.

2.
will receive “remission” of sins (Acts 10:43),
Acts 10:43 Τούτῳ πάντες οἱ προφῆται μαρτυροῦσιν, ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν λαβεῖν διὰ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ πάντα τὸν πιστεύοντα εἰς αὐτόν.

The infinitive for “receive” is an aorist infinitive. Therefore, receiving remission (forgiveness) of sins is a one time event, not over and over as would be the case if a person lost his salvation.

3.
John 1:12 Ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν, ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι, τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ·

“Receive” and “Gave” are both aorists. “Become” is an aorist infinitive. So it is a one time receiving to become a son of God.It is “given” one time only, not repeatedly, as would be the case if one kept losing his salvation.

4.
can “know they are saved” (1 Jn 5:13)

1 John 5:13 Ταῦτα ἔγραψα ὑμῖν τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα εἰδῆτε ὅτι ζωὴν αἰώνιον ἔχετε, καὶ ἵνα πιστεύητε εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ.

“Know” is a perfect subjunctive. The perfect tense indicates a single action in the past that produces results that continue. So we can know once and for all that we are saved. We don't have to repent over and over again, since we can know once for all.


5.
will be “born again” (1 Jn 5:1),

1 John 5:1 Πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ὅτι Ἰησοῦς ἐστὶν ὁ χριστός, ἐκ τοῦ θεοῦ γεγέννηται· καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀγαπῶν τὸν γεννήσαντα ἀγαπᾷ καὶ τὸν γεγεννημένον ἐξ αὐτοῦ.

“Born again” is a perfect passive participle. The perfect tense shows action repeated in the past with continuing results. Therefore we are only born again one time, and our salvation is the result that continues.

J of J: Rule 1: The present tense is often not continuative

“… the present indicative is also often aoristic.”
“Some presents express punctiliar action and a few even express perfective action”

REK: “Often,” “some” and “a few” do not negate “normal.” The “normal” use of present participles is still progressively “continuous” and occasionally “habitual” or “regular.” You make the exceptions the norm.

Rule 2: When the article is before a participle, it is substantival.

REK: It is still la present-tense progressive participle. In English it is called a verb-noun or an adjective-noun, or Gerund.

J of J: In particular, ὁ πιστεύων (literally, “the believing one”) and other present participles of πιστεύω (“I believe”) should often be translated as just “the believer.”

REK: I disagree. “The believing one” still “normally” means “the one continuously believing.”

J of J: There is no other word in Koine Greek to mean believer.

REK: “Pis-ton” is male and “pis-tia” is female. If God had wanted those two words used, He would have inspired them.

J of J: “The participle, like an adjective, may be used in the place of a noun or other substantive. The participle itself then functions as a noun”.

REK: Yes, a “progressive” noun. The “one who is continuously swimming.”

J of J: Rule 3: The participle depends on the main verb for its "kind of action'

REK: In John 1:12 “even those who continuously believe on His name” is a clause which is equal to the two aorist verbs, “received” and "gave.” Context is the final arbiter.

J of J: … participles cannot be the main verb.

REK: Therefore, John 3:16 goes down the drain and is meaningless.

J of J: So, since there are numerous aorist or perfect main verbs in the examples given for “believing,” those verses prove just the opposite of the idea that one can lose his or her salvation. “It often turns out that a Present Participle alludes to an action with which the action of the main verb coincides”.

REK: Again, “numerous” is NOT the majority of my examples. Again, you make the exceptions the rule.

J of J: “Generally speaking, the present participle denotes action taking place at the same time as the action of the main verb.”



REK: Again, from John 1:12, God “received” and “gave” authority to those who were ”righteous by faith” because they “continuously believe” (Rom 3:22; 4:5).)

J of J: Quotes John 3:16 in Greek.

REK: “Perish” does not control “continuously believeth.” Plus, the “subjunctive” is correctly translated as “should not” instead of “would not.”

J of J: Acts 10:43

REK: “everyone who continuously believes in Him will receive the forgiveness of sins.” God did not inspire “believeth” as an aorist.

J of J: 3. John 1:12

REK: again, the last clause is EQUAL to the first two aorists.

J of J; 4. 1 Jn 5:13 The perfect tense indicates a single action in the past that produces results that continue.

REK: According to John 3:18, the perfect tense does not guarantee continuance. Our assurance comes from knowing that our justifying and sanctifying faith are the same.

J of J; 5. 1 Jn 5:1 The perfect tense shows action repeated in the past with continuing results.

REK: PERFECT means a thoroughly completed action in the past, but John 3:18 means it does not necessarily not change. PASSIVE means it is in flux. PARTICIPLE means progressive action. Because of the participle, this is a very strong assurance text teaching that those who are continuously believing can be assured they have been born again.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

Thank you for the kind words.

Wow! His own Wikipedia page!

Well, hopefully my posts will inform those who might tend to be influenced by him.

For your information, the Wikipedia page was produced by a friend without my knowledge.

 

[Nolan Stengel]

Here's the deal. In English, the most important thing about a tense is the time of action. However, in NT Greek, the main thing about the verb is not the time the action takes place, but what kind of action it is.

It is true that the Greek language carries much more data than English does but I don’t understand the concern over the tense of “believe”.

We all agree that saving faith needs to include continuous belief. The confusion Russell seems to be whether or not we must keep ourselves in a state of belief or if it is the Holy Spirit keeps us in a state of belief.

 

[John of Japan]

J of J: Rule 1: The present tense is often not continuative

“… the present indicative is also often aoristic.”
“Some presents express punctiliar action and a few even express perfective action”

REK: “Often,” “some” and “a few” do not negate “normal.” The “normal” use of present participles is still progressively “continuous” and occasionally “habitual” or “regular.” You make the exceptions the norm.

Rule 2: When the article is before a participle, it is substantival.

REK: It is still la present-tense progressive participle. In English it is called a verb-noun or an adjective-noun, or Gerund.

J of J: In particular, ὁ πιστεύων (literally, “the believing one”) and other present participles of πιστεύω (“I believe”) should often be translated as just “the believer.”

REK: I disagree. “The believing one” still “normally” means “the one continuously believing.”

J of J: There is no other word in Koine Greek to mean believer.

REK: “Pis-ton” is male and “pis-tia” is female. If God had wanted those two words used, He would have inspired them.

J of J: “The participle, like an adjective, may be used in the place of a noun or other substantive. The participle itself then functions as a noun”.

REK: Yes, a “progressive” noun. The “one who is continuously swimming.”

J of J: Rule 3: The participle depends on the main verb for its "kind of action'

REK: In John 1:12 “even those who continuously believe on His name” is a clause which is equal to the two aorist verbs, “received” and "gave.” Context is the final arbiter.

J of J: … participles cannot be the main verb.

REK: Therefore, John 3:16 goes down the drain and is meaningless.

J of J: So, since there are numerous aorist or perfect main verbs in the examples given for “believing,” those verses prove just the opposite of the idea that one can lose his or her salvation. “It often turns out that a Present Participle alludes to an action with which the action of the main verb coincides”.

REK: Again, “numerous” is NOT the majority of my examples. Again, you make the exceptions the rule.

J of J: “Generally speaking, the present participle denotes action taking place at the same time as the action of the main verb.”



REK: Again, from John 1:12, God “received” and “gave” authority to those who were ”righteous by faith” because they “continuously believe” (Rom 3:22; 4:5).)

J of J: Quotes John 3:16 in Greek.

REK: “Perish” does not control “continuously believeth.” Plus, the “subjunctive” is correctly translated as “should not” instead of “would not.”

J of J: Acts 10:43

REK: “everyone who continuously believes in Him will receive the forgiveness of sins.” God did not inspire “believeth” as an aorist.

J of J: 3. John 1:12

REK: again, the last clause is EQUAL to the first two aorists.

J of J; 4. 1 Jn 5:13 The perfect tense indicates a single action in the past that produces results that continue.

REK: According to John 3:18, the perfect tense does not guarantee continuance. Our assurance comes from knowing that our justifying and sanctifying faith are the same.

J of J; 5. 1 Jn 5:1 The perfect tense shows action repeated in the past with continuing results.

REK: PERFECT means a thoroughly completed action in the past, but John 3:18 means it does not necessarily not change. PASSIVE means it is in flux. PARTICIPLE means progressive action. Because of the participle, this is a very strong assurance text teaching that those who are continuously believing can be assured they have been born again.

I see no need to answer all of these points now, nor do I have time. I am teaching a two week block course in Dispensational theology, and have already used more time to answer you than I should.

Suffice it to say, you are not arguing with me personally, but with all of the Greek scholars I quoted from. And in your supposed rebuttal to what I wrote, you don't give quotes from any Greek scholar who agrees with you. I have Greek grammars from: Robertson, Black Wallace, Mounce, Davis, Moule, Blass and Debrunner, the BJU Greek faulty, Arndt and Gingrich, and others. Do you own a Greek grammar? If so, than why are you not quoting from it to bolster your points?

You don't appear to actually know Greek, judging from your ways of describing Greek grammar, and your misunderstandings. Did you take any Greek courses in getting your advanced degrees from Covington Theological Seminary? (I would never recommend anyone to go there for degrees.) If you did, you got cheated, because your knowledge of Greek is not up to par. And this means no one should pay attention to your positions about losing one's salvation. You're not qualified to write on the Greek.

God bless.

 

[John of Japan]

For your information, the Wikipedia page was produced by a friend without my knowledge.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[John of Japan]

It is true that the Greek language carries much more data than English does but I don’t understand the concern over the tense of “believe”.

We all agree that saving faith needs to include continuous belief. The confusion Russell seems to be whether or not we must keep ourselves in a state of belief or if it is the Holy Spirit keeps us in a state of belief.

The good doctor Kelly believes he can prove we must keep on believing in Christ or we will lose our salvation. So I believe it is important to confront that false doctrine.

 

[JesusFan]

I see no need to answer all of these points now, nor do I have time. I am teaching a two week theology block course, and have already used more time to answer you than I should.

Suffice it to say, you are not arguing with me personally, but with all of the Greek scholars I quoted from. You don't appear to actually know Greek, judging from your ways of describing Greek grammar, and your misunderstandings. Did you take any Greek courses in getting your advanced degrees from Covington Theological Seminary? (I would never recommend anyone to go there for degrees.) If you did, you got cheated, because your knowledge of Greek is not up to par.

God bless.

My senior Pastor earned 2 Doctorates, one in church management and another in NT theology in Johannine books, and took 5 years Hebrew and Greek at DTS while there, but even he needs to daily read out of Hebrew Psalms and Greek John to keep it refreshed and remembered

 

[JesusFan]

The good doctor Kelly believes he can prove we must keep on believing in Christ or we will lose our salvation. So I believe it is important to confront that false doctrine.

We should just accept that its God who is the One who works and wills in us, as H promised to complete the good work he has started in Us until that day when we go home, and still looking for the qualifiers that Jesus must have stated about he can and will keep all that the Father have to Him unless they?

 

[John of Japan]

My senior Pastor earned 2 Doctorates, one in church management and another in NT theology in Johannine books, and took 5 years Hebrew and Greek at DTS while there, but even he needs to daily read out of Hebrew Psalms and Greek John to keep it refreshed and remembered

Excellent! I don't have a doctorate, but am working on a DMin right now. But to keep up I translate a verse into English from the Greek in my devotions every morning, and translate four verses from the Hebrew into Japanese every day when I can. You don't just pick up a book on parsing the Greek, or whatever, and become an expert. I took 19 credits of undergrad Greek, taught it three years in Japan and have taught it ten years here to get where I am. I went to Japanese language school two whole years full time to learn that language.

Dr. Kelly has not shared where he got his knowledge of Greek. I'll be waiting, but I don't think he ever took a single class. You can't just look at a book and then know a language. I once had a book, Japanese in 30 Days. I always took a look at it when I wanted a laugh or two. Then there were the Italian brothers who wrote English As She is Spoke.

 

[Nolan Stengel]

Excellent! I don't have a doctorate, but am working on a DMin right now.

I’d like to see you have your own Wikipedia page before I start taking your education seriously.

 

[JesusFan]

Excellent! I don't have a doctorate, but am working on a DMin right now. But to keep up I translate a verse into English from the Greek in my devotions every morning, and translate four verses from the Hebrew into Japanese every day when I can. You don't just pick up a book on parsing the Greek, or whatever, and become an expert. I took 19 credits of undergrad Greek, taught it three years in Japan and have taught it ten years here to get where I am. I went to Japanese language school two whole years full time to learn that language.

Dr. Kelly has not shared where he got his knowledge of Greek. I'll be waiting, but I don't think he ever took a single class. You can't just look at a book and then know a language. I once had a book, Japanese in 30 Days. I always took a look at it when I wanted a laugh or two. Then there were the Italian brothers who wrote English As She is Spoke.

my Pastor likes to tell the story where his Greek professor told the class that was a great thing they now passed 5 years of the Greek studies, and they were not wise enough yet to do own fully independent studies, , and needed to get to 10 years in it before free to launch out on their own independent thoughts in the original languages!

When I launched into my own original languages studies, he advised me to stick to just starting and doing either Hebrew or Greek separately, as to realize that while Hebrew will seem much harder at first due to being very different from Greek, once get used to its will actually be easier to use and learn then Koine Greek

 

[John of Japan]

J of J: Rule 1: The present tense is often not continuative

“… the present indicative is also often aoristic.”
“Some presents express punctiliar action and a few even express perfective action”

REK: “Often,” “some” and “a few” do not negate “normal.” The “normal” use of present participles is still progressively “continuous” and occasionally “habitual” or “regular.” You make the exceptions the norm.

You are misunderstanding the point. My point is that your position depends on a single idea, that the present tense is always "continuous," but it is not. Context decides if it is imperfective or aoristic. I am not making "the exceptions" the norm. It is not a matter of "exceptions," but of proper interpretation according to the context. When the Greek present tense is aoristic, that is just as valid as when it is imperfective. It's not a matter of normal and abnormal.

Rule 2: When the article is before a participle, it is substantival.

REK: It is still la present-tense progressive participle. In English it is called a verb-noun or an adjective-noun, or Gerund.

Huh? Where did you get this? In English, "participle" and "gerund" are not the same. And I think you mean "adjectival noun." (Not in Greek, though.) And where did you get that "verbal-noun"? In Greek there are no "verbal-nouns."

J of J: In particular, ὁ πιστεύων (literally, “the believing one”) and other present participles of πιστεύω (“I believe”) should often be translated as just “the believer.”

REK: I disagree. “The believing one” still “normally” means “the one continuously believing.”

You are free to disagree if you wish. However, I gave scholarly sources and you do not. You are depending on your personal Greek knowledge, which is extremely slim. And no one translates ὁ πιστεύων as "the one continuously believing."

J of J: There is no other word in Koine Greek to mean believer.

REK: “Pis-ton” is male and “pis-tia” is female. If God had wanted those two words used, He would have inspired them.

First of all, the grammatical terms are not "male" and "female," which refer to creatures and not grammatical gender, but "masculine and feminine." Secondly, the words are not "Pis-ton," but pistos (πιστός, an adjective) and pistis (πίστις, a feminine noun meaning "faith" which cannot be used to mean "believer").

But you give no reason, no quotes from scholars, why you disagree with me. Why are you disagreeing with me? Do you have a reason from Greek semantics to do so? Or is it just your own idea?

J of J: “The participle, like an adjective, may be used in the place of a noun or other substantive. The participle itself then functions as a noun”.

REK: Yes, a “progressive” noun. The “one who is continuously swimming.”

No, you have to decide from the context whether it is "continuous" or aoristic. Please share. How did you make your decisions about all the usages of the phrase that you believe teach we can lose our salvation? I don't get your exegesis.

J of J: Rule 3: The participle depends on the main verb for its "kind of action'

REK: In John 1:12 “even those who continuously believe on His name” is a clause which is equal to the two aorist verbs, “received” and "gave.” Context is the final arbiter.

J of J: … participles cannot be the main verb.

REK: Therefore, John 3:16 goes down the drain and is meaningless.

What in the world are you talking about? I never said that nor do I believe it.

J of J: So, since there are numerous aorist or perfect main verbs in the examples given for “believing,” those verses prove just the opposite of the idea that one can lose his or her salvation. “It often turns out that a Present Participle alludes to an action with which the action of the main verb coincides”.

REK: Again, “numerous” is NOT the majority of my examples. Again, you make the exceptions the rule.

No, I do not make the exceptions the rule. The fact that a present tense verb can be either imperfective or aoristic does not say that one of thosse is the rule and the other is the exception. That way of thinking does not understand linguistics and verb systems.

J of J: “Generally speaking, the present participle denotes action taking place at the same time as the action of the main verb.”



REK: Again, from John 1:12, God “received” and “gave” authority to those who were ”righteous by faith” because they “continuously believe” (Rom 3:22; 4:5).)

I backed up my contention that the present participle shows action at the same time as the main verb with four different quotes from Greek grammars. You don't mention any source for your disagreement with this rule. How do you defend your belief that the main verb does not rule the present participle?? Are people supposed to simply agree with you without reason? You're not a Greek scholar. I can tell you don't even know the language. You have no standing to say this.

Now concerning your contention on John 1:1 that people are "righteous by faith because they continually believe, you're missing the grammar of the verse. The main verb "receive" is, once again, aorist, along with the verb "gave." The phrase "to them which believe on His name" is a dative participle, meaning it is the the substantive (noun form) of the word being used as an indirect object. Surely you know that an indirect object can never portray the action of a sentence!

J of J: Quotes John 3:16 in Greek.

REK: “Perish” does not control “continuously believeth.” Plus, the “subjunctive” is correctly translated as “should not” instead of “would not.”

It is not "continually believeth." No one translates it that way, not a single Bible version I know of in English, or Japanese. And it says "shall not perish" because it is a subjunctive, which portrays a possibility. So because one has believed, there is no possibility of losing that. I don't know where you get "should not"--do you have a source for that, a grammar or a Bible translation or a commentary?

J of J: Acts 10:43

REK: “everyone who continuously believes in Him will receive the forgiveness of sins.” God did not inspire “believeth” as an aorist.

Well no, of course not, I never said He did inspire it that way. I simply said that the main verb governs the participle, and I gave you four sources from Greek grammars that teach that. You give no source at all for your apparent belief that the participle controls the main verb. Can you tell me a single Greek scholar who teaches that? No, you can't. The verb "receive" is an aorist infinitive, meaning that we only receive salvation one time. You have not answered this.

J of J: 3. John 1:12

REK: again, the last clause is EQUAL to the first two aorists.

Where in the world do you get this? What grammar? No Greek scholar teaches this. Can you find perhaps a commentary that agrees with you? I'll be waiting.

J of J; 4. 1 Jn 5:13 The perfect tense indicates a single action in the past that produces results that continue.

REK: According to John 3:18, the perfect tense does not guarantee continuance. Our assurance comes from knowing that our justifying and sanctifying faith are the same.

The perfect tense guarantees continuance of the results of the action. ALL GRAMMARS AGREE ON THIS. I dare you to produce a quote from a grammar that interprets the Greek perfect tense differently.

J of J; 5. 1 Jn 5:1 The perfect tense shows action repeated in the past with continuing results.

REK: PERFECT means a thoroughly completed action in the past, but John 3:18 means it does not necessarily not change. PASSIVE means it is in flux. PARTICIPLE means progressive action. Because of the participle, this is a very strong assurance text teaching that those who are continuously believing can be assured they have been born again.

What in the world are you talking about when you say "PASSIVE means it is in flux"?

Again, what do you mean when you say "PARTICIPLE means progressive action"? This is an inaccurate statement. Do you not know that there are not only present participles, but aorist, perfect, and future participles?

Please do better than this. It would be humble of you at this point to admit you do not know Greek.

 

[John of Japan]

REK: It is still la present-tense progressive participle. In English it is called a verb-noun or an adjective-noun, or Gerund.

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a verb-noun or adjective-noun. I have two dictionaries of linguistics, and neither of them mention a "adjective-noun." They both mention a "verbal noun" (not "verb-noun") but it is not what you say it is.

"verbal noun Typically of forms which derive systematically from verbs, but whose syntax is like that of nouns" (P. H. Matthews, The Oxford Concise Dictionary of Linguistics, p. 427).

 

[timf]

I find some interesting verb information in using a Wuest translation. Yes, the critical text is inferior, but he shows a desire to carry over much of the verb information that can be lost in some other translations. One idea that can be lost is that of a difference between faith and belief in English. The common illustration of a tightrope walker asking a viewer if he believes he can cross a tightrope pushing a wheel barrow. To which the viewer answers, "Yes I believe you can". Then the viewer is asked if he wants to ride in the wheelbarrow.

In the Greek there is a linkage between persuasion and belief that is similar to our common usage in English today such as someone told about Jesus death burial and resurrection by someone and that person believes it is true, but does not trust in it. Context I think needs to be used to convey the trusting aspect.

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

I see no need to answer all of these points now, nor do I have time. I am teaching a two week block course in Dispensational theology, and have already used more time to answer you than I should.

Suffice it to say, you are not arguing with me personally, but with all of the Greek scholars I quoted from. And in your supposed rebuttal to what I wrote, you don't give quotes from any Greek scholar who agrees with you. I have Greek grammars from: Robertson, Black Wallace, Mounce, Davis, Moule, Blass and Debrunner, the BJU Greek faulty, Arndt and Gingrich, and others. Do you own a Greek grammar? If so, than why are you not quoting from it to bolster your points?

You don't appear to actually know Greek, judging from your ways of describing Greek grammar, and your misunderstandings. Did you take any Greek courses in getting your advanced degrees from Covington Theological Seminary? (I would never recommend anyone to go there for degrees.) If you did, you got cheated, because your knowledge of Greek is not up to par. And this means no one should pay attention to your positions about losing one's salvation. You're not qualified to write on the Greek.

God bless.

I have 18 semester hours in Greek from a fully accredited Arminian college. Incredibly, I have discovered that Baptist Greek scholars and Arminian Greek scholars do not agree. I have pointed out several times that you make the exceptions to the rule the rule which are poor conclusions. Greek scholars from Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Church of Christ and many other Arminian churches disagree.

I have found 57 "believe" present participles. All of your rules include "some," "a few" and "many" which make them the exceptions. In fact, most of the 57 present participles of "believe" do not contain your so-called "aorist control verbs." My list present "believe" participles from the majority of texts are ALL PRESENT TENSE. You insult God's inspired choice of present participles over aorist verbs by refusing to translate these texts as "continuously believing."

Rom 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that (continuously) believeth.”
Rom 3:22 “Even THE RIGTEOUSNESS OF GOD WHICH IS BY FAITH of Jesus Christ unto all land upon all them that (continuously) believe.”
Rom 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but (continuously) believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is (being) counted for righteousness.”
Jn 6:35 I am the bread of life: he that (continuously) cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that (continuously) believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jn 6:47 He that (continuously) believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jn 7:38 He that (continuously) believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, (continuously) believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Rom 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for every one that (continuously) believeth.”
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Eph 1:19 “And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who (continuously) believe.”
1 Th 2:13 The word of God which effectually worketh also in you that (continuously) believe.”
Heb 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that (continuously) believe to the SAVING of the soul.”
1 Jn 5:5 “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that (continuously) believes that Jesus is the Son of God.”

 

[Russell Earl Kelly PHD]

My senior Pastor earned 2 Doctorates, one in church management and another in NT theology in Johannine books, and took 5 years Hebrew and Greek at DTS while there, but even he needs to daily read out of Hebrew Psalms and Greek John to keep it refreshed and remembered

Dallas Theological Seminary is Calvinist. Does he teach that salvation does not include faith and is predestined.

 

[JesusFan]

I find some interesting verb information in using a Wuest translation. Yes, the critical text is inferior, but he shows a desire to carry over much of the verb information that can be lost in some other translations. One idea that can be lost is that of a difference between faith and belief in English. The common illustration of a tightrope walker asking a viewer if he believes he can cross a tightrope pushing a wheel barrow. To which the viewer answers, "Yes I believe you can". Then the viewer is asked if he wants to ride in the wheelbarrow.

In the Greek there is a linkage between persuasion and belief that is similar to our common usage in English today such as someone told about Jesus death burial and resurrection by someone and that person believes it is true, but does not trust in it. Context I think needs to be used to convey the trusting aspect.

We know that even Satan and the demons "believe" in the truth that Jesus is Lord and God, yet that is not a saving faith, as they will never commit to making Jesus THEIR personal savior and Lord

 

[JesusFan]

I have 18 semester hours in Greek from a fully accredited Arminian college. Incredibly, I have discovered that Baptist Greek scholars and Arminian Greek scholars do not agree. I have pointed out several times that you make the exceptions to the rule the rule which are poor conclusions. Greek scholars from Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Church of Christ and many other Arminian churches disagree.

I have found 57 "believe" present participles. All of your rules include "some," "a few" and "many" which make them the exceptions. In fact, most of the 57 present participles of "believe" do not contain your so-called "aorist control verbs." My list present "believe" participles from the majority of texts are ALL PRESENT TENSE. You insult God's inspired choice of present participles over aorist verbs by refusing to translate these texts as "continuously believing."

Rom 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that (continuously) believeth.”
Rom 3:22 “Even THE RIGTEOUSNESS OF GOD WHICH IS BY FAITH of Jesus Christ unto all land upon all them that (continuously) believe.”
Rom 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but (continuously) believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is (being) counted for righteousness.”
Jn 6:35 I am the bread of life: he that (continuously) cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that (continuously) believeth on me shall never thirst.
Jn 6:47 He that (continuously) believeth on me hath everlasting life.
Jn 7:38 He that (continuously) believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, (continuously) believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Rom 10:4 “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for every one that (continuously) believeth.”
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Eph 1:19 “And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who (continuously) believe.”
1 Th 2:13 The word of God which effectually worketh also in you that (continuously) believe.”
Heb 10:39 “But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that (continuously) believe to the SAVING of the soul.”
1 Jn 5:5 “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that (continuously) believes that Jesus is the Son of God.”

JOJ main point to you though is regardless if the scholars are Calvinist or Arminian in their theologies, they will all have to agree with standard Greek grammar, Syntax, sentence construction, and especially in the Greek verbal aspect. There is not one reputable grammar that will agree with your contention that the Greek NT verbal aspect teaches one must be in a continually belkeiving sdtatus, as ifif we ceased to be,eive, would be relostagain. Truth is from greek text that the Holy Spirit teachiung would be since you have already beleived in Him, do have eternal life right now and forever more.One time done deal to continue forward

 

[JesusFan]

Dallas Theological Seminary is Calvinist. Does he teach that salvation does not include faith and is predestined.

DTS not Reformed, but is Baptist Calvinist, like a John Macarthur view, and Calvinists state that a lost sinner must received Jesus to save them thru faith alone